To disagree that only white people can be English

[Neome]

This idea popped up on a thread about something else entirely. I have white and asian heritage. It sounds like, in this person's view, I cannot describe myself as English only as British.

Aibu to say that being born in England I can reasonably describe myself as English and heritage and skin colour do not bar anyone from describing themselves as English?

It's very ignorant. Like someone with white skin couldn't possibly be from anywhere else?

Of course it doesn't...why would skin colour make any difference at all?

We're all white and born in England, although I'd consider myself British rather than English as we've managed to get a mix of English, Welsh and
Irish and the children have both UK and Irish passports.

I was referring to both you and one other poster letsgomile. I asked because most people who consider themselves English would describe themselves as being 'from' England rather than 'from' the country their parent(s) were born in.

You are more English than I am, OP! [Grin]. That's from a pasty-white woman who was born abroad and has never lived anywhere in the UK for more than 3 years.

I agree, it's not about your skin colour but your identity and community. Bonus points if you can moan about the weather in a self-depreciating way and can form a queue on a whim.

I struggle with this. I'm white and born in England, but entirely of immigrant stock, varying from a non-English parent to about 5th generation immigrant ancestors.

I am uncomfortable that no one questions my English identity because I am white, but do question others who have much more English ancestry or a similar immigrant background because they are not white.

I'm white and that is an outrageous opinion. Of course English people can be other colours and races , if they have other cultures in their heritage.

I posted the census as I thought PPs were getting confused with ethnicity over nationality (trust me, it happens!)
The general view is you are either white English/Irish/Welsh or British Asian/black.
I actually found it odd that you can be, for example, African American but not African English.

You are stating it was my opinion when in actual fact I even said I found it odd but when I asked my DH he said he or his family would never describe themselves as English, only British which is what I referred to in the post you are talking about.

I thought it was common knowledge that English is more often than not used to refer to white people with English heritage but British is used regardless of skin colour. I think Welsh and Irish likewise are used to describe those of the pale (ie white) variety

There has been countless academic debates about this. It's a confusing thing but don't think it is racist.

More commonly used by who?

@Magicroundabout321
You've taken my comment out of context - I was listing various things that made me think someone was English, and that was one of many.

And one which doesn't apply to me. What's out of context about that? Or are you suggesting that to be English a person must tick all of the boxes you arbitrarily assign to it?

More commonly used by who?

Racists.

I am white, Welsh and British, fact. I know people who are, Black, Welsh and British, fact. However, my Sil is White, Welsh but not British, xenophobic, fact!

@TooManyPaws

I think it’s possible to be Scottish and Irish and welsh and a person of colour because, on the whole, in those nations skin colour and nationality is separate. Most racist piece of shites there could tell a brown person with a scottish / irish / welsh accent they aren’t that nationality because in those nations accent and birth equals nationality. That’s not the case and has never been the case in England

Note the name of the Tweeter here.

But Hardeep was tweeting about happened in England, not Scotland? Not clear about your point sorry.

@Yabbers leave off, @Magicroundabout321 says upthread
'I don't think you have to be born in England to be English. I think that's one reason why you might feel English, but there are so many factors.'.

She's not suggestimg what you think she's suggesting at all.

If you’re born in England you’re English. It doesn’t matter what colour you are. There are other ways to become English, but being born here is the main one.

Eh? I’m white but have Irish and European heritage. It has never crossed my mind that I’m not English.

YANBU

I disagree that "being born" is a major characteristic.

Say your parents are from Canada but live in England for a few years because of mum's work. Kid 1 born in England and then goes back to Toronto as a toddler. That kid is not English, no?

Other example of a kid from Toronto, Canadian parents, moves to Hull aged 2.5 and goes to school there, gets a job in Hull; I'd say by the time kid 2 is 18 kid 2 is a "full English".

It's not really where you are born, it's your connections with the community that make you "from" a place.

Thinking about it, accent and schooling has a huge impact on the perception of one's "provenance" to give it a poncy name. My friends with a foreign accent are considered "other" even if they have lived in the country for 30 years. I wonder if skin colours has the same "othering" function for some people. Not saying yes right, of course.

That last sentence was supposed to be: " not saying it's right, of course"

Of course YANBU.

Fintan O'Toole's book on Brexit has interesting stuff on this.

Basically British identity is on the wane and more people are identifying as English post-devolution and rise of Scottish independence, Welsh and Scottish national parties.

People want to be English in response but no one really knows what it means to be English as opposed to British, apart from that it's a narrower category so people with a more complex past are likely to be seen as British but not English.

I don't think interest in Englishness is bad if we can make it inclusive and forward looking instead of intolerant and insular.

YANBU - of course you are English.

But not everyone born and raised in the UK knows what the national terms mean. I remember asking my parents, as a child, what the difference between English and British was and which I was. They told me that I was British and not English because only those whose parents had both been born in England and had been born there themselves could be English. They told me British was the term for people like me, born in England but not to English parents.

I believed that for years. It was only later that I realised British actually referred to a wider definition, covering all the nations of the UK.

I think, for my parents, there was a hangover from colonialism and the Commonwealth when notions of Britishness were being redefined- 'British' had also referred to anyone born in a British colonial territory and then, for a while, a Commonwealth nation. That had changed by the time I was born but was clearly still a legacy for my parents. My family were British, Commonwealth, and X (The nation my parents were from) and that applied to us kids as well. As we were all British, they'd never really thought about whether their children were English until I asked.

Of course all of that is part of a very radicalised and racist history. And one that many modern racists are completely unaware of. For some the legacy of that thinking is theirs still, even though they have no idea were it came from. For others, they are just out and out racists!

As an aside, there's also research though that shows English ethnic minorities are more likely to call themselves British than Welsh and Scottish ethnic minorities (I'm not sure about NI). Theories about that are basically to do with the right-wing and racism so associated with English nationalism.

I was born in England to parents who were both immigrants, but I don't feel English as I think of being English as ethnic/genetic. I describe myself as as a Londoner or from the UK/British. Just asked DH who is half Scottish and half Caribbean and also born and brought up in London, and he does feel English. Interesting!

If you’re born in England you’re English.

As my father use to say 'Just because you are born in a stable, doesn't make you a horse'.

My husband and his parents were all born in different countries, they all have British passports but consider themselves various thing depending on context6. My DCs call themselves English (born and live here) but I think they are Scottish (genetically they have more Scottish ancestors than anything else) but will probably end up with Irish passports. Because when you have a choice of passports you choose the most useful one and how you view yourself varies depending on if you are talking about culture or genetics or legality.

I would refer to myself as British if it was relevant. That's what's on my passport so it is my nationality. Never English as I don't feel it. I grew up with a mixed nationality family and in a very multicultural area. The "English" people I knew were nasty WASP types. It was definitely a statement thing to call yourself. Please note I am not saying everyone who describes themselves as English fits this profile at all, and I think identifying as English is more common now which widens the range of people who do, just that my personal experience is that "British" people were nicer than "English" in general. Which led me to feel the way I do about it.

I am Welsh, my Mum was Welsh, my Dad was Irish and DH is North African.
My DC are born and brought up in London and consider themselves English.
I am sure there will be some people who wouldn’t consider them English when DH is chatting to them in Arabic.
Yet on my Mum’s side there is also a lot of Cornish so my DC actually have English ancestry that I have traced back for over 200 years (yet I suspect having an Arabic speaking Muslim father will override that for certain types).