To disagree that only white people can be English

[Neome]

This idea popped up on a thread about something else entirely. I have white and asian heritage. It sounds like, in this person's view, I cannot describe myself as English only as British.

Aibu to say that being born in England I can reasonably describe myself as English and heritage and skin colour do not bar anyone from describing themselves as English?

I am not English and wasn’t born here. I used to think of English as ethnicity and British nationality. By that definition English people are mainly white or mixed race (if they have a white English parent). But I have met black people mainly from the Caribbean who identify as English. That widened my opinion. It doesn’t matter what people identify themselves as.

One question though, can a white people born in China call themselves Chinese? Anyone born in India can call themselves Indian? If not, what is the difference?

One question though, can a white people born in China call themselves Chinese?
Yes if they have Chinese nationality and you asked them what nationality they were. No if you asked them what ethnicity they were.
It’s not the puzzle you hoped is it.

letsgomile
If you’re born in England or have citizenship here after immigrating then you are English AND British. Whichever you prefer to use.

And yes - if you hold citizenship of India, then you are an Indian citizen. Same with China, regardless of your skin colour.

This thread has really lifted my spirits.

🌼🌻🌹🌹🌹🍰🍓🌹🌼🌻

(Wtf Matthew Parris?!)

So white people can be African with any questioning deemed racist also.

It’s not the puzzle you hoped is it

This really made me laugh.

I’m sorry - but how do people not get this!!

DH is Irish. He is able to live here without holding citizenship because of the EU. Therefore, he is not English or British.
If he has to apply for citizenship after Brexit, then he will be English/British- and also still Irish as he would have dual nationality. My son also has dual nationality.
We are all Caucasian. That is determined by our genes. Not what passport we hold!

One question though, can a white people born in China call themselves Chinese? Anyone born in India can call themselves Indian? If not, what is the difference?

It depends on the laws of that country. If they have Chinese/Indian nationality then they are entitled to regardless of the colour of their skin.

What about children of Welsh parents who were serving overseas and so the child was born in a German hospital? Are they entitled to call themselves Welsh or are they British/German but not Welsh?

So white people can be African with any questioning deemed racist also

Yes. There are white people born on the continent of Africa. Shocking isn’t it. They are African and Caucasian.
My Father lives in South Africa. Some of his friends are white AND South African.

What about children of Welsh parents who were serving overseas and so the child was born in a German hospital? Are they entitled to call themselves Welsh or are they British/German but not Welsh?

You’d have to look up immigration laws of Britain and Germany to answer this. I would imagine that they would claim British nationality. And of course, could describe themselves as Welsh if they so choose.

So white people can be African with any questioning deemed racist also
Yes I have personally met white South Africans and Zimbabweans who would call themselves African. Why on earth wouldn’t they

I don’t care what anybody wishes to call themselves and in my opinion if you’re born in English you’re English. If someone had African heritage I would say African British.

But... if I moved to China and had children there, and they had children I don’t think my grandchildren would ever be classed as Chinese or African or Indian or wherever we moved to, not in my eyes or the eyes of people in that country. So not sure why it works the other way round.
Please correct me if I’m wrong

Sorry didn’t read the full thread and see this has been done...

I think this is more about citizenship/culture than ethnicity.

A foreign child, adopted as a baby by english people, would be english. A foreign child born in england, who grew up in england and adopted their customs, is english.

My son was born in, let's say, Tealand, but he's not Tealandese because it's not his culture. I'm from, let's say, vineland, and I'm raising him in the vinelandian culture, so that's what he is.

In the end there are numerous factors that can tell you who you are ; soil, ethnicity, blood, culture. I frankly feel like culture is what matters most because it shapes your life and values.

@poster gamerwidow I think you assumed a lot from my question and took it the wrong way. It was a genuine question. I wasn’t born here. I am not white. I am learning and like I said, it doesn’t matter what people identify as. I am joining in the conversation and enjoying reading all different views/ explanations. Thank you to all those that answered my question.

Imustbe, I have noticed this too and it baffles me to be honest.

‘’
But... if I moved to China and had children there, and they had children I don’t think my grandchildren would ever be classed as Chinese or African or Indian or wherever we moved to, not in my eyes or the eyes of people in that country. So not sure why it works the other way round’’

I knew my point would be misconstrued. It was a reverse style one.

English is a nationality, not a race.

Of course you are English.

My parents were born in Wales to Welsh, Cornish, Welsh and Scottish parents. I was born in England. I consider myself Welsh. My DC were born in England to me and an English father. They consider themselves English. It’s complicated...

People are conflating too many concepts here. Nationality is about citizenship. Race is related to physical characteristics, like ginger hair or bone structure. Ethnicity is linked to culture and language. Hence a person of colour can be English even they might not stereotypically look like one. There are Russians who look more Asian because they live closer to Japan than Moscow.

The human race has many overlapping ancestries. And is still evolving today. see, just for one example (there are other, even more diverse, theories) : www.independent.co.uk/news/science/human-evolution-africa-multicultural-ethnic-first-people-homo-sapiens-oxford-university-a8442356.html

The British Isles were empty after the last Ice Age. Over the past 10,000 years (approx) the land has been populated by many and different groups of new arrivals. They looked different from each other. They had different beliefs and social organisations and technologies. They were ALL IMMIGRANTS, but, like people today, all were and are entitled to think of themselves as British or English or Welsh or Scottish whatever. Because that's where they lived. At the moment, 'British' legally and politically speaking includes Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, as well as England. So citizens in any one of those four branches of the United Kingdom can identify as belonging to one or the other, or both. And/or as European, of course.

In any case, 'white' covers such a vast spectrum with no clear divisions within it. It's nonsense to try to draw boundaries. Some of my cousins have sallow skin, brown eyes and brown hair; others have red-gold hair, blue eyes, white skin and freckles. They are all the progeny of the same grandparents. Appearance tells us very, very little. And it should matter very, very little, as well.

Culture is a different matter - in that it's something we have a choice about. Cultural norms are sensitive, but can surely be managed with tolerance and goodwill on all sides. And, just like physical evolution; they are not fixed. Instead, they change all the time.

My dads English and my mother is from Caribbean. I have never been to my mothers country and was born and raised as English as English can be the true stereotype that I now cringe at

However, as my skin is brown I can pretty much forget being English apparently. I always say I have no idea where I’m supposed to fit. Wherever I go it’s implied because I’m not white I wouldn’t know the nuances of what it is to be English.

I find it more odd that if I go somewhere like Italy or Spain they couldn’t care less where I’m from they will welcome me with open arms with about 4 words of Latin. Oh well!

I recently had to fill out an application form for my dd who is 3/4 English and 1/4 Caribbean. The form was for a private school (a rather famous one). I’ve realised this isn’t what I want for dd. I have plan to send to a relevant body to complain as it only has white English, and then : colour of skin then I state dd ethnicity. There is literally no option for anything other than ‘white’ English. Otherwise it’s assumed you’re not English. Terrible.

I'm a bit confused by people on this thread saying they know very English black people from the Caribbean - I'm not sure if you mean English people with Caribbean heritage or people who were born in the Caribbean but now live in England?

Also confused by people drawing parallels with calling white people African. Africa is a continent, not a country - your nationality can't be African. For this reason the terms 'African', 'Asian' and 'European' are much more likely to be used as ethnicity classifiers than 'English', as England is a country.

By the by, being born in China doesn't actually guarantee you Chinese citizenship. Your parents have to fit certain criteria, so actually, anyone legally Chinese (but not necessarily ethnically) would be considered Chinese by other Chinese people. Not everyone from China looks as you would expect either. It's massive and it shares borders with Russia, Kazakhstan and Pakistan, to name but a few.

Saynotocarrots, if you’re referring to me, I meant black people born here but to Caribbean born parents. I was / am not questioning their right to call themselves that by the way. It’s just something I learnt / observed when I first came to this country. Only because it’s something I hadn’t thought of before as like I said, I’m a foreigner here.

What @SilverNewMoon said, really.

It is used generally interchangeably to imply ethnicity and/or nationality.

Cheddar man. one of the oldest inhabitants of England and not white.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-42939192