PIL and Housing

[exculpatrix]

So, to set out the starting premise: My partner's parents offered to buy us a house in January. Before I say anything else I want to note that I am hugely grateful for this. It's a massively nice thing to do, and I very much appreciate the financial burden involved. Getting a house in London is pretty much the same as a decent size lottery win, and I don't want anyone to think I'm not very thankful for the offer.

With that caveat out of the way, I have some issues with things, and I want to know if I'm being out of line or not. Issues:

1. They want a lot of say in things. They keep saying it should be a "forever home" where we're happy, but they also keep trying to tell us where it should be. We live in Kings Cross at the moment, and are looking at areas a bit further out but with good transport links such as Colliers Wood, Colindale, Walthamstow, and Leytonstone. Her parents seem determined that we should live somewhere like Stevenage, St Albans, or Chorley Wood, and just ignore us whenever we say those places are too far out. For reference, I've lived my whole life in London, have moved around it a lot, and my dad is a licensed black cab driver who did the knowledge and taught me a lot about different bits of London. I know this city well. Her parents live in Yorkshire and spend as little time down here as possible. They don't know what this city is like.

1. Their organisation. They made this offer to us in January. They only spoke to their accountant about the practicality of it this week. I appreciate that house buying isn't a fast process, but they are dragging their heels at every step. My partner hates living where we do at the moment and is desperate to get out, but they seem in no rush to do anything.

1. Their lack of communication. It's only this week that they've given us a rough idea of budget, and even then they won't give us an actual number for what our upper limit is, which makes it hard to work out what we can realistically look at. They also won't discuss housing around me at all. This stresses my partner out to no end. She doesn't want to have to play messenger, running back and forth between us, but they're not giving her much choice. They've apparently pretty much made it clear to her that I'm considered a plus one, so my opinion doesn't matter, so there's no point involving me in the conversation.

1. And this is the kicker: Apparently her dad has now said that he thinks I should get a mortgage and contribute to the cost of the house. For the record: her parents are minted. They don't need the money I would add to afford this place. They can drop £800k on a house and not even really notice. I'm a mid level civil servant, I could get about £120k on a mortgage max. So it's not the case that they need me to contribute. Her dad just thinks I should have "skin in the game" to make things fair. This is a new development, and certainly wasn't mentioned when they made the offer. I made career decisions based on their offer (could have taken a 3 year posting in New York and lived rent free in Manhattan the whole time, but chose to stay in London because I thought we were getting a house), so am feeling a bit miffed that they're changing the terms of the offer on us.

I guess I have a couple of questions:

A) AIBU to think that they're making this harder than it needs to be? And that if they're going to make the offer they shouldn't then turn around and change the terms?

B) Could I even get a mortgage? Her parents want to keep the house in their name for at least a few years, so that if anything goes wrong between us I can't lay a claim on it. Which is fair enough, I can understand wanting to protect your investment. But I feel pretty sure a bank won't lend me any kind of money if the house isn't in my name, because then the bank has no security on their loan?

Speak to them yourself about signing a paper stating you will have no claim on the house dont take out a mortgage or pay rent to them if it comes down to it tell them your looking to going overseas anyway so a house wont be necessary hopefully

See how they respond to honestly

OP, is it possible her parents see you as 'less' because you're a same-sex partner? I'm in a same-sex relationship and we've had issues with parents on both sides somehow not thinking it's quite as real as if we were a hetero couple. Not that it makes a difference, I suppose - her parents' attitude is very controlling. But sadly, in the end its your wife who could make the changes there. You can't, really.

My parents have offered us financial help - nothing like on this scale, but given where we live in the country, it could make a similar amount of change to our (renting) lifestyle. If my parents were treating my DP the way your in-laws treat you, I would be bloody furious! And my DP has a history of financial problems and substantial debt, which my parents know about and which would give them concrete reasons to be cautious.

I think you probably need to stand up to your in-laws a bit.

What would your wife say if you told her you didn't feel comfortable with their offer and couldn't go ahead?

Still waiting for OP to tell us all how her wife feels.

I think gender could very well be an issue for PIL - they would not be the first parents who would have preferred their DC to have a 2-sex marriage.

OT to the main topic but you say you have a good knowledge of London and think the absolute shit-tips that are Walthamstow and particularly Leytonstone are desirable you couldn't pay me to live in Kings Cross either, and I'd not want to have kids in any of those places.

Irrevelant whether its a man or a woman.

You didn’t seem to think this when you repeatedly used the phrase ‘men like you’.

Well of course it doesn't matter if the OP is a woman. But l wonder if PILs feel the same.

They're not offering a deposit, they're offering to just buy it outright. The last I heard (as noted, I only get information through my partner) the idea was that they would buy it, keep it in their name for 5 years in case we split up (how that helps I don't know) and then gift it to her.

It won't be possible for you to get a mortgage on a house owned by them. You'd think people with this much cash would know stuff like this.

I would say thanks but no thanks if it was me

whereyouleftit is spot on. Any other postings you could go for? They can take their controlling pretending to buy your wife a house and shove it.

@PolPotNoodle those places are not the places they were in 80s. Walthamstow is a village. There's not a whiff of sex worker in KX these days.

I think you had six months now to learn the lesson: don't put empty promises by PIL over career opportunities. I would forget about their offer. I don't think the money is going to materialize and even if it does there will be lots of strings and it won't be worth your nerves. So: take the next available and suitable posting abroad and enjoy. Save as much money as you can while not paying rent. Then come back and see where your finances and the London property market are post-Brexit. If it's still unaffordable consider other places in the UK. I know quite a few FCO folks who work from home for either the entire week of three days a week and only come to London when needed so you can always move to Hastings or somewhere. Particularly if your wife works freelance.

You can let your wife carry on the negotiations if she wishes but stay out of it and I would not agree to make rent payments to your PIL or move somewhere you don't want to live or turn down any further career opportunities.

Your plan to live in Walthamstow or Leytonstone is completely not compatible with their offer to buy you a place in Stevenage etc. You're talking about buying a place in an up and coming area of London, they're talking about post war towns in Hertfordshire. The difference in price is astronomical. No comparison at all.

So based on that, yes you're unreasonable to expect them to be happy to pay for your own more expensive choice. You are further unreasonable to expect them to do so without any contribution yourself.

Either accept their gift on their terms, or do it through your own means and in your own way. If you don't want what they're offering, you haven't lost anything by refusing. If you can compromise and get a place you like better with their agreement with yourself matching the cost, that's reasonable, too. But with the difference in price between those areas that sounds unlikely.

Nope. Don't do it. The fact that there are so many problems now means it will only get worse.

You said that they will have it in their names for five years. Simply put, that means you will probably have no rights, even if your partner cheats on you and kicks you out.

I think this sounds like a bad idea for you and more like an act of control than generosity from your in-laws. Whilst you're 'living cheaply' you'll also be living in and maintaining someone else's house and not feathering your own nest. If they want to buy a property, that's up to them but make your life decisions independently of that.

This happened to a friend of mine and it ended the relationship (they weren’t married).

Honestly, I just wouldn’t accept their offer. They will have you over a barrel because quite honestly they can dictate whatever terms they like.

It’ll drive a wedge between you and your partner. You’ll become an unequal partnership.

Just say no thank you.

My parents gave us a fairly large deposit to help myself and DP at the time (now DH) buy a flat a several years ago. As part of our mortgage application, they had to write a letter confirming it was a gift and not due to be paid back.

Our solicitor also wrote up a Deed of Trust which both myself and DP signed to say that if the relationship broke up, that amount of money would revert to my parents or me. We both totally understood and respected that.

Not sure if they'd have done the same if we were married at the time but totally understand why they did.

You're right to go with your choice of location OP, I know both the places you mention well and have lived in one and they are very different/have v different property prices so doesn't sound like they have the best understanding about location around here! Wonder why they chose those two.

You were mad to not take that posting in NY! You would have been able to save for a house without the ILs money and their strings that would most definitely be attached.

To be clear, they're not offering to buy you (you and your wife, plural) a house, they're offering to buy your wife a house.

I also think that your attitude about the money they're offering being a drop in the ocean, does sound entitled. However, as pps have said, you can't get a mortgage on a property that is in their names, and it's unlikely that a bank would give you a mortgage for part ownership, as it would make it difficult for them to access the money if you defaulted. The ILs would have to pay it to the bank, or the bank would have to force a sale. Far too complicated. So forget about that.

Tell them no. You and your wife will have to buy somewhere that you can afford. And don't make life decisions based on them offering you anything. They could offer to give you anything, but it doesn't mean that they would actually do it, as you're now discovering.

Just to be different..

I don't think you do sound entitled, I think previous posters are reading into your words what they want to read so they can throw their hands up, clutch pearls and claim you are grabby...

On to the real issues though...

1/ This tells you this offer is about control and manipulation as much as it is about anything. Telling you and your wife where they think you should live, in an area they know nothing about... theres only one reason for that...

2/ Classic manipulation, get you on a string and dangle you for as long as they like. I would be shocked if this is NOT a direct response to the potential for you and their daughter to bugger off to the US for a long time.

3/ This ones way more personal, they don't see you as family, they don't see you and their daughter as a true partnership, they don't respect your relationship, they don't respect YOU.

4/ This really backs up 3, they want to tie their daughter to them whilst ensuring you cannot possibly benefit.

If this were a genuine offer to help, they would be offering to gift you/her/both of you a sum of money towards a house. No strings.

They MIGHT want some sort of security for their daughter, that wouldn't be unreasonable, if discussed with you both.

This isn't a genuine offer of help, so your issue now really is to talk to your wife about this and see how you BOTH handle it.

I find it strange that a grown independent person would even want to accept a hand out like that at this stage in their lives. Don't you want to earn and own your own home with your wife? To know that it's yours and no one can take it from you?

You were silly to give up NYC and the chance to save your own deposit while living rent free and furthering your career.

This house from the PIL comes with a puppet theatre worth of strings. Run a mile.

Talk to your wife, say you are team. This is your life together. If PIL don't want to gift this to you both (and fair enough if they don't, you sound like you've been eyeing their wealth TBH and I'd be cautious of you as well) then you would rather own a property off your own steam.

And then buy something you can afford yourselves.

Don't owe anyone a damn thing. You will regret it.

I made career decisions based on their offer (could have taken a 3 year posting in New York and lived rent free in Manhattan the whole time, but chose to stay in London because I thought we were getting a house)

So their tactic worked then. Is it too late to go for this or a similar posting?

Taking money from family in this way is fraught with difficulties even if all sides intend well. They won't even discuss this with you in the room - do they take you seriously as their DD's wife?

Hi OP,

If your partner's parents buy a house and it is not their main home they will have to calculate and pay capital gains tax when they dispose of the asset. I'm no expert but let's say the value goes up roughly 200k over any number of years that they own it. When they dispose of the asset (even giving it away at no charge) they would be able to deduct their 11k ish annual allowance and then capital gains tax is due (30% odd?) on the remainder of the gain. Could be pretty hefty if there is a large gain on a valuable London property.

The best way for them to avoid this capital gain (and additional stamp duty due to already owning property) as well as protect their money if you and your partner split is for them to become your "mortgage lender". For example you buy the 800k house in your and your partner's names using their money but they (their solicitor) registers an 800k "charge" against the property with the land registry (like a bank usually does) so that if the property is sold the solicitor settles any remaining debt with them before the land registry will remove the charge. You wouldn't have to make any payments unless that was agreed with them but if they asked you to pay something your debt to them would reduce. If you make payments Keep a paper trail /bank records of any payments made so their is no room for dispute. If they charged interest on their "loan" then that would be taxable income and need to be declared to HMRC. Even if they do ask you to make regular payments you will be getting a huge leg up if you are not asked to pay interest as all of the payment will go off the capital when with a mortgage a payment can often be 50:50 interest to capital. Any rise in house prices would be your and your partner's equity as if you sold you would only have to settle the loan.

In this way if you do make payments it is crystal clear what amount of the house you own and what amount your partner's parents are still owed money for (they don't own it like HSBC/Nationwide doesn't own a mortgage house but you owe them the money. )

If they asked you to repay say £500 a month you might find after 5 years or so they say you can stop the payments. You would have paid off that amount of the hoyse and own the equity that you have paid for. They might decide to remove the charge entirely at some point writing off the loan.

If they owned the house or had a charge on your house (you owed them money) that would be part of their estate for inheritance tax purposes. The rule about not having to pay inheritance tax on something you gave away at least 7 years before dying the clock would only start once the house was gifted/charge removed.

If you lived in a "normal" part of the country I would suggest you find your own path but if a decent home is going to cost 800k then it is probably your only chance to get one on relatively normal wages. If they do try to treat you like puppets on a string though decline their offer and keep your dignity.

Hopefully the "charge" idea can put some of their worries to bed.

I think people saying that because the parents don't want to simply gift you as a couple 800k they don't accept you/don't respect you etc are being unfair and jumping to conclusions. Your in laws may be wealthy but if they simply gifted you the money the reality that if you and your partner split they have just gifted 400k outside of their bloodline and taken that money from their children and grandchildren would give most parents pause for thought/hand wringing. Legal agreements that you wouldn't be entitled to anything would be far from watertight inside a marriage and this wouldn't be a good arrangement for you anyway as you wouldn't want to find yourself with nothing if you and your partner did split in a decade for example.

@exculpatrix
for not taking the fabulous job in New York

No SunniDay, the reason why people are saying the parents don't like OP, is because they refuse to discuss this with OP. If they expect OP to put money into this, then they need to grow up and have an adult conversation with OP, instead of using their daughter as the messenger.