There's no mandate for a no deal Brexit

[Cinammoncake]

It seems to me (as a remainer) that leavers didn't give their vote to a no deal Brexit. Even if say half of them might want that now, there's no mandate now to go ahead and do something so damaging to the country as this. I don't remember this outcome seeming likely around the time of the referendum, so I think people just didn't vote for that.

the referemdum was advisory . doesnt matter what the leaflet said doesn't matter, just like what was said on the leave leaflet and the side of the bus doesn't matter

Twat-Mogg on R4 just now. Pretending he hasn't been the one formenting the idea of prorogue. Pretending that anyone who despises No Deal is simply anti-Leave. What a shithead.

I think people who voted leave believed what they were told at the time of the referendum, which included things like how easy it would be and that we would leave in a managed sensible way.

And because they were lied to about the benefits of being outside the EU, and because the leave campaign behaved, at best, improperly with regard to funding!

It was a stupid idea, it wasn't a fairly fought campaign, and it was flawed from the start. The arguments against leaving are complex and subtle, and can't be reduced to simple soundbites. The arguments for leaving are (mostly) simple and appeal to simple people.

And I say that as someone who seriously considered voting to leave, because, as a socialist, there is an awful lot about the EU that I disagree with. But I could see that we need the protections afforded by the EU and realised that the economic consequences would be disastrous. And when there's an economic disaster, it's the poor and vulnerable that cop the worst of it.

BBJ - morning, though I am remaining unclear what the point you're trying to make is.

Referendum - it has been established by law lords (of some flavour or other) that IF the referendum was binding it would have been declared void due to the lies, general deception and interference in the running of it. Lets not forget the leave organisations have been prosecuted for various offences emanating from their conduct.

So no, not accepting the referendum ISN'T anti-democratic at all. Au contraire..

The country voted to leave so we must leave. I for one was fully informed and aware of what this means.

I don't see how anyone could be "fully informed" when there are more ways of leaving the EU than of leaving your lover.

There should have been a second referendum on the terms of the exit, so people could see what sort of Brexit they were voting for.

Well yes Lakie we've gone from "all the benefits with none of the burdens, sunny uplands, they need us....trade deals will be the easiest in history" bollocks to "planes will fly, we WILL have clean water and Mars bars"...wtf are we doing with Johnson as PM??

The EU have been massively grown up and patient with us. THAT is embarrassing enough. It is in Europes interest to stop us self-harming.

The prominence of someone like Rees mogg proves the problem I was talking about above. People of quality are fewer in number among our political class than they were. In the thatcher years Rees-Mogg would have been an occasional figure of fun at best.
Interesting watching the thatcher programme a few weeks ago. Whatever you think of her - and I’ll admit I’m a confirmed admirer - her ability and that of those around her, was head and shoulders above what we see today. Where have all the grown ups gone?

A close vote isnt any definition of a soft brexit. 'soft brexit' wasnt on the card.

Yes it is. Hard brexit wasn't on the card either. No deal definitely wasn't, the leaders of the leave campaign assured us it wouldn't happen, and we'd get a great deal.

52:48 is the very definition of a soft brexit. 48% didn't want to leave at all, and within the 52%, many of those would have been voting for a soft brexit with a good deal, some for a medium brexit, some for a hard brexit, some for a no deal brexit.

In a normal election, if the Tories win by a very narrow margin, it's a soft win. They have loads of opposition MPs to put the view of the losing sides and hold the govt to account. And they have to compromise on their policies or they won't get them thru. Thus it's broadly representative of the whole country, not just the winners.

One of the major problems of the referendum is that its actually being used in an anti democratic way by prominent leavers.

52/48 is not a large victory, nor is it a mandate for hard brexit. What has happened is this cabal of politicians ( and their backers) have grasped the opportunity to force through things that were not on the ballot and claim it was the will of the people.

This is how despots use referenda.

Exactly. 3 foxes and 2 chickens voting on what to have for lunch is not democracy, it's the tyranny of the majority.

In any democracy, we don't have win-we get what we want, lose- fuck you. Unless it's a 100% -0%. The views of the losers are always represented. The closer the result, the greater representation they get.

Following the referendum, we should be leaving, after negotiating a soft brexit with a good deal, as promised by the winners. If the govt cannot deliver that, we need another vote with the now available options, remain, or leave with no deal/a bad deal.

MrPan

My point was about the reduction in powers of the veto and its replacement which is a voting system.

But I'm not getting in to it again as another poster just wants to argue about a point I wasn't making.

boney so is that you finally admitting that there is no withdrawal of a veto or switch to QMV on the EU army then?

ContinuityError

As you keep trying to twist what I have said I am going to leave you to it

You continue to go on about the EU army, its your bee in your bonnet.

More remoaner whinging. Just get over it.

"More remoaner whinging. Just get over it."
Don't you love it when crazy bot shit turns up😂

boney The EU army isn’t actually a bee in my bonnet - I just like to be accurate when discussing it as it was much maligned by the Leave campaign (along assertions that Turkey was joining the EU).

But hey ho. Maybe I just like facts.

ContinuityError
But hey ho. Maybe I just like facts.

For the last time, I have repeatedly told you what I meant.

You have even agreed that the veto is being reduced. (its up there go and read it)

Yet you are repeatedly telling me what I think, and what I mean, This is not "facts" this is your version of it.

You wonder why we are where we are, maybe if you stopped telling people what they think and what they mean, and listen you might just find out.

You and others like you are a major part of the reason why we are in this mess. But you will never see this because you will twist this this in to some BS meaning that you and your morals can live with.

So congratulations, thread hidden.

The EU army “veto” is written into the Lisbon Treaty. It can only be changed by Treaty change.

That is the fact.

Nothing to do with any other vetos or QMV.

I am not telling you what to think (despite your protestations) but I am pointing out the facts when it comes to what is contained in Article 42.

Maybe if these facts had been accurately reported and honestly discussed during the run up to the referendum we wouldn’t be in this mess - ever thought of that?

And no, I am not responsible for this mess. That lies firmly with the Leave campaigners and those that voted Leave.

Not my circus, not my monkeys.

“There will be no downside to Brexit, only a considerable upside.”

David Davis
10 October 2016

“Getting out of the EU can be quick and easy – the UK holds most of the cards.”

John Redwood
17 July 2016

“The free trade agreement that we will have to do with the European Union should be one of the easiest in human history.”

Liam Fox
20 July 2017

“We're not really interested in a transition deal, but we'll consider one to be kind to the EU.”

David Davis
15 November 2016

“I believe that we can get a free trade and customs agreement concluded before March 2019.”

David Davis
18 January 2017

“Indeed, [a trade deal] would take significantly less than two years. We hold all the cards. We will offer them a deal in response to their pleas for help.”

Patrick Minford
14 June 2016