There's no mandate for a no deal Brexit

[Cinammoncake]

It seems to me (as a remainer) that leavers didn't give their vote to a no deal Brexit. Even if say half of them might want that now, there's no mandate now to go ahead and do something so damaging to the country as this. I don't remember this outcome seeming likely around the time of the referendum, so I think people just didn't vote for that.

A close vote isnt any definition of a soft brexit. 'soft brexit' wasnt on the card.

Well quite, to say "we knew what we were voting for" is utter bollocks.

A few months ago a worryingly large proportion of the electorate thought "no deal" meant we don't leave at all.

The GBP are not the saviest of groups of people.

And so Mr pan you are clearly so much more intelligent than everyone else! Why do you demean yourself by talking to the rest of us?

Yes, the shelves are empty of tinned goods.

Oh wait...

I voted Leave and was and still am fully aware that it might well mean no deal.

Having read von der Leyen's speech to the EP in Strasbourg, seen the lack of choice and democracy in her appointment; read about the move from IMF to the ECB by Lagarde, I am glad we are leaving, especially given the mooted move to QMV for foreign policy decisions and the change from a national competence to an EU competence on taxation that is coming shortly.

Agree with BigBall about no deal being the table. I think some MPs are beginning to realise this.

As for no European army - one has to ask if this is the case why the EU had had the EU Military Staff for some little while...and why some of the chat in Brussels over the past 15 years has been about the possible site for an HQ for the European military, despite there being a very nice new shiny one in Evere that was opened by POTUS not all that long ago.

Opinion is divided, some think that the whole European defence thing is just more work for EU based defence contractors and firms as there is no evidence that many of the EU Member States (who are also NATO allies, or PfP nations) have any desire to fund their own defence, given the parlous state of their Armed Forces and their defence spending; others think that expanding Frontex, and taking baby steps with PESCO is the start of the road to the EU standing up its own Forces, as opposed to, like NATO, using the Forces of the Allies.

Yes but if penny re no deal is only dropping with MPs now, no basis for concluding the voting population understood the position in 2016.
That isn’t even the point. The point is there is no consensus in the country on our post Brexit arrangements. Given that, how can you mess with the status quo and drag nearly half the people who bothered to vote into a maelstrom they didn’t ask for?

scaryteacher do you think that everyone who voted to leave voted for no deal? and if not do you think then that more people must have voted remain than the number who voted to leave with no deal.

The point is there is no consensus in the country on our post Brexit arrangements. Given that, how can you mess with the status quo and drag nearly half the people who bothered to vote into a maelstrom they didn’t ask for?

I agree thebigballofoil MPs seem to have a blind spot when it comes to the fact that almost as many voted to remain as voted to leave in the first place. They are still part of the electorate.

I voted to leave but I didn't vote for no deal. I would prefer to remain than leave with no deal.

redredrobins - I said no such thing as being more intelligent - I think it's right wing brexiter investors who will be laughing most at the gullible element in the GBP, as they soak up the profits from the disaster whilst the bulk of the GBP tug a forelock, and go without. Why do we think No Deal Brexit is soooo attractive to these people?

girlsblouse would you support a second referendum in that case, or what do you think should happen now?

Exactly mr Pan - who among us didn’t squirm watching the creepy brexit party MEP and property investment guy try to justify to Emily Maitlis on newsnight his own published views on the huge property investment windfalls available from the referendum itself and now from a no deal brexit. His answer - well errr yes - these gains are available to be made but but but .... we will all gain (in some unspecified way). These people are vile scum.

Quite Cinnamon. I have not taken kindly to my excommunication from the British people since voting remain in 2016. I will take even less kindly to losing my job as a result of no deal. And if a large part of the remain voting population becomes similarly disaffected, things could get quite bumpy.
I wouldn’t want to be mr Fromage under that scenario. Although he’ll be off to some tax haven bolt hole, what am I saying?

As for no European army

Read the Lisbon Treaty. You should notice a key phrase involving the words “unanimously” and “constitutional requirements”. If the UK Government were even considering it, then it would have gone to a referendum in the UK.

I am fairly certain that a NO DEAL will not happen. It was never an option anyway, just a threat.

And today's vote in Parliament is the first step. Good on them. That's why I think it is all mars bars and kippers to the faithful, and am hopeful that those with a brain (leaving Johnson out of it for now) will accept that leaving with no deal is just bonkers.

I really wish Brexiteers (not Leavers as such) would kindly point out to me the advantages of leaving now. We have had three years and NADA.

Just shows you.

MrPan

European army? Again, veto exists for any sich pan-european measure.

The use of the veto is not only being restricted but essentially phased out.

The drive is for a vote based restriction which is only currently of any use due to the UK, Germany and other small countries having enough of a percentage to prevent changes.

@Cinammoncake

Technically there is no mandate for no deal, remain or any of the variations of brexit.

@Cinammoncake I do support a second referendum. I've written to my MP requesting one but he does not support it.

I had various reasons for voting to leave but now I think it's a big mistake especially with the mess that has been made of Brexit by our Government. I hope now that there will be a vote of no confidence in a Boris govt at some point and then that will lead to a general election and hopefully then to a second referendum and finally hopefully a stop to all this madness.

I voted remain, but now if the choice is no deal or remain then I'd definitely choose no deal.

Why @SchrodingersBox ?

Why's that schrodingers box? sounds bonkers

girlsblouse I think many leavers believed that they were voting for a soft Brexit, a deal, a Norway plus or whatever. They were led to believe any opposition was just project fear but can now see the reality. It's hard on those people to just go no you voted for this and there's no chance to change your mind.

@MrPan

no-one voted for a no deal
MPs did (by default) didn't they when they voted in favour of triggering Article 50, then voting against Theresa May's Withdrawal Agreement. The EU have said there will not budge on the terms of the WA. So No Deal is the legal default isn't it?

Or am I missing something?

BoneyBackJefferson

European army? Again, veto exists for any sich pan-european measure

The use of the veto is not only being restricted but essentially phased out.

Then the Treaty of Lisbon will need to be amended.

And I think some of the traditionally neutral countries might have a few objections to that.

It's just ridiculous if we leave with no deal on 31 October the first thing we have to do i on 1 November is make a deal but with added difficulty of being outside the EU not in it!

You couldn't make this shit up!

If No deal meant we could just walk away and never deal with the EU again I could sort of get it but we can't do that because we need to sort out Trade, sharing of Security Information, residence issue of citizens on both sides, Air Agreements - all the stuff set out in the Withdrawal Agreement.

No deal is just slamming the front door behind us and then realising our keys, handbag and suitcase are still inside!