To be in two minds about the chicken pox vaccine

[trippingovertoysinthedark]

I’m really on the fence with this one.

On the one hand, I have two preschool children in full time childcare and a SE partner. Financially, we could be in trouble if we had to take time off work to look after them if/when they get chicken pox. Also, I don’t want them to be unwell.

However, on the other hand, them being unwell now might set them up for lifetime immunity and that would probably be ultimately better than the vaccine when it wanes - I’m also not a fan of vaccinating children when it isn’t needed, as vaccine damage can happen and yes tiny chance blah blah but why take that chance if you don’t have to? Although I haven’t read of any adverse reactions to the pox vaccine but then would I be likely to?

So I’m dithering here

Are the posters who have talked about their personal experiences of those rare CP complications also being hysterical?

Of course I haven't said that, that would be rude and dismissive.

However, as I'm sure you appreciate, anecdotal experiences aren't objective data. Parents whose children suffered chickenpox complications are far more likely to post on threads of this nature.

Chickenpox is a mild illness and complications are rare. Posters on here saying things like "In my experience it’s a bit of a myth that it’s just a mild illness" are fear-mongering.

I must admit only MN is there so much hysteria over the pox
Everyone I talk to in real life says ' yes it's horrible at the time but it's over quickly and that's it . '
Why would the NHS say it's a mild illness in most cases if that wasn't true ?

The immunity can wear off after the disease too esso. There isnt a position any of us can put our kids in where theres no need to consider keeping adult immunity topped up, unfortunately.

My DD who is 3 had chicken pox a couple of months ago, and I was really surprised at how mild it was.

She had a handful of spots on her body, a manageable temperature and was generally quite perky.

I, however, then caught it and had the worst time imaginable. I ended up in hospital due to having them in my throat and a rising temperature. I've also go scarring on my face that I don't think will ever go away.

I'm so glad my DD had it how she did and will never have to through that again. It was absolutely awful, and I wish I had been vaccinated or had it as a child!

From the British Medical Journal:
‘Chickenpox accounts for about 25 deaths annually in England and Wales, more than from measles, mumps, pertussis, and Hib meningitis combined.’

My Dd wouldn’t be here if she hadn’t been pumped full of very strong antibiotics when she had chickenpox. Six weeks we were dressing her wounds with special bandages. She was a healthy 1 year old beforehand. A little boy (same age, same summer) had it exactly like her but died. It still is the worse time of Dh and my life. And we have been through some stuff. But not knowing about what’s going to happen to your child who lying unconscious on a hospital bed, surrounded by drips and monitors, is not me scare-mongering. It was what happened.

I have a boy with a rare gene mutation. We spent 2 weeks in hospital with chicken pox and we nearly lost him!
He is marked beyond belief ...
.chicken pox ate his bum so badly that even to this day, if he gets even a tiny nappy rash we have bare fleash because his skin is so thin! You can see every pox mark!
It ate his gastrostomy site too. He had a chicken pox on every part of his body and needed morphine just for nappy changes and still does sometimes now!
.....and the OP is worrying about time off work and vaccine damage !

Esto I see what you mean about the uncertainty of how things will be in 18 years time and not wanting to put that on your child, however you are aware that even if you get actual chicken pox you can get it again, and may not have life long immunity. Whether you are vacinnated or not you run that risk.

@PCohle it’s not hysteria to say chicken pox can be very serious and even fatal. As several pp have noted it kills children and adults every year in the UK (and they have listed BMJ articles and good evidence to support their statements). It’s usually a mild illness (like measles) but can be very serious. Also it’s a fact that nearly every other developed country vaccines routinely against chicken pox. These countries have much lower rates of death and disability caused by chicken pox (as you would expect).

The NHS could save lives if it added chicken pox to the vaccine schedule. As noted by other posters, the claims re “wearing off” are simply not borne out by the evidence.

Vaccines are incredibly safe, much much safer than chicken pox. If you are choosing not to get your kids vaccinated it’s because you has a misconception about the dangers of vaccines.

Where can I find the JCVI minutes online? It would be good to read them.
Is the double risk of febrile Convulsions something that's still there if routine paracetamol is given with the jab (like with men b?)

Ps the truth is the immunity 'wears off' far quicker from the natural illness than from the (two) jabs!

I don't really care whether anyone vaccinates their kids against CP or not. I'm just glad I got my dd vaccinated and she is protected against a horrible illness. Even if it's mild, being covered in itchy scabs is hardly pleasant. It's very very easy to be smug if your child was lucky enough to get a mild version of the disease. I imagine you would never forgive yourself though if you had the opportunity to vaccinate and they suffered terribly, or God forbid, died. That's not a chance I'm willing to take with my daughter. Especially for a stupid reason like it might wear off when she's 30, even when there is no evidence for this at all.

The main problem is that chicken pox is infectious before the spots come out so the virus gets passed on very easily. My friend caught cp when she was pregnant and her baby was born with a life long disability as a result. She’d had cp previously but her immunity wasn’t strong enough for some reason. Please vaccinate your child unless there is a really good reason not to.

My daughter at 12 months. Very very bad. She recovered well but had scarring (on the face too :-( )

JCVI minutes are on the gov.uk site, below:

www.gov.uk/government/groups/joint-committee-on-vaccination-and-immunisation

Even if the risk of febrile convulsion is higher wit mmrv than mmr it will still be less of a risk than the disease.
Febrile convulsions are usually first sign of illness so come out of the blue (my family have gefs,+ for generations ds alone had over 20 fc)
So at least with vaccination you know to be more prepared)
But despite the history in my family none of them had one as a result of vaccination.

Look, it’s a decision we all must make individually.

What annoys me is people dismissing others experiences as “scare stories” because it doesn’t fit in with the narrative they tell themselves to justify their decision.

Of course there are a small number of deaths (but that’s still 15-20 human beings a year in this country, with loved ones and lives) and a relatively small number of hospitalisations for things like encephalitis, pneumonia, sepsis, meningitis related to chicken pox (but still other 100 children a year, someone’s children).

That does not mean that it’s rare to have secondary skin infections or be horribly unwell. It just means those kids have been treated before it progresses to the stage of being hospitalised.

Out of the 20 kids at the boys nursery who’ve had chicken pox in the last few months, at least 8 have needed to see a doctor for antibiotic cream and at least 4 have needed oral antibiotics. One was hospitalised for over a week. Of course that’s just anecdotal info, but these papers never cover primary care consultations, of which there are many.

I hope your child does have it mildly and you feel vindicated in your choice. I know I felt absolutely awful that my children were suffering so much when I could have prevented it and I can’t imagine how the parents of kids who are disabled or killed by it now must feel. I personally think it’s disgusting that it’s not on the NHS schedule, when the main justification is to protect society against another condition which a) can be vaccinated against and b) would be mostly eradicated in a few generations if this step were taken.

For me it's mostly money
We could scrape it together but it wouldn't be easy
I'd absolutely love to see it on the NHS schedule

And futher to my post about making sure CP goes on medical records, cost me ,£50 and a trip to London to get proof Dd had CP.

Chickenpox is a mild illness and complications are rare. Posters on here saying things like "In my experience it’s a bit of a myth that it’s just a mild illness" are fear-mongering

If it were serious the NHS WOULD vaccinate against it. The shingles issue would not matter.

As I have said on there before, if you are anti-vaxx you are criticised for ignoring NHS advice. Yet people constantly go on about chicken pox and decide that the NHS is wrong, despite zero medical training. You can't have it both ways.

Let's face it, you could get a cold and end up with bad side effects. If you think your child could be vulnerable, get the vaccine (or eg if you spend a lot of time with an elderly or other relative who is immune-compromised). A lot of side effects from CP came when parents (me included) were giving their children ibuprofen. Hopefully parents know not to do that anymore.

But in the vast majority of cases, your child will be fine after a couple of days. It really comes down to whether you want the hassle of having to look after sick child(ren) or have unforgiving employers etc. That would be a reason to do it for me, not because I think CP is serious.

As for the pregnancy thing, it may be an issue. But the main reason we vaccinate against rubella is because of the pregnancy issue, so CP is obviously not nearly as dangerous for pregnancy (and slapped cheek disease is also bad if you are pregnant yet I had not even heard of it before I got it from ds when he was 3). And maybe women TTC should get themselves vaccinated instead of expecting others to spend money doing it?

I don't need to justify any decision because ds had it when he was 16 months old, and both DH and I have had it too. But I am now in a similar dilemma about HPV and ds, as it is now being rolled out to boys but he is too old.

If you are choosing not to get your kids vaccinated it’s because you has a misconception about the dangers of vaccines

I think in this case it has a lot more to do with money. And indeed you could argue the contrary in this case, see my point above.

If it were serious the NHS WOULD vaccinate against it. The shingles issue would not matter.

So those other countries that do spend the money to vaccinate do so for the fun of it?

Over a hundred hospitalised kids, six child deaths and 20 deaths overall each year is serious IMO. Certainly if my child died or became disabled from an illness that could’ve been prevented by a vaccine, and that would have been vaccinated against if we lived in many other countries with similar statistics, I’d be very angry.

It makes me extremely angry that this has become a two-tier health issue, since those who can afford it can protect their children from it.

Seems like most at my daughter's nursery haven't vaccinated as they have had loads of kids off with it recently

Over a hundred hospitalised kids, six child deaths and 20 deaths overall each year is serious IMO. Certainly if my child died or became disabled from an illness that could’ve been prevented by a vaccine, and that would have been vaccinated against if we lived in many other countries with similar statistics, I’d be very angry.

Yes posts like this are not at all fear-mongering and certainly don't seek undermine the NHS's credibility when it comes to vaccinations

How are quoting facts fear mongering PCohle? I bet you'd be dancing to a different tune if it was one of your children included in those statistics.

They come directly from the paper in the BMJ I linked to earlier. How is it scare mongering when it’s factual?

The figures came from this study
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2066097/

There’s also this 10 year study which shows a much higher average of hospitalisations for under 10s as a result of chicken pox, over 3,000 over 10 years:
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5647672/