To be in two minds about the chicken pox vaccine

[trippingovertoysinthedark]

I’m really on the fence with this one.

On the one hand, I have two preschool children in full time childcare and a SE partner. Financially, we could be in trouble if we had to take time off work to look after them if/when they get chicken pox. Also, I don’t want them to be unwell.

However, on the other hand, them being unwell now might set them up for lifetime immunity and that would probably be ultimately better than the vaccine when it wanes - I’m also not a fan of vaccinating children when it isn’t needed, as vaccine damage can happen and yes tiny chance blah blah but why take that chance if you don’t have to? Although I haven’t read of any adverse reactions to the pox vaccine but then would I be likely to?

So I’m dithering here

I remember getting chicken pox at 8, it was horrendous. Just lying in bed with awful muscle cramps down both my legs, continuously vomiting. Think I was off school for 3 weeks. I do have pockmarks, one in the middle of my forehead that I hate!!

My kids were born in Australia and vaccined as is routine. None of the kids of my friends in Oz have had cp it is quite rare there now.

We don't know if the vaccine wanes which is true of many vaccines I believe. You just go with the best info you have at the time. It just isn't a question in Australia, or USA. I don't know why this issue of vaccine wearing off comes up in the Uk, maybe it's an excuse to keep it off the vaccination schedule and save the NHS money!

Me deciding my child should have Varivax will not lead another parent to decide their child should not have the MMR.

No, but threads like this encouraging people to disregard NHS advice, believe that NHS recommendations are based on secret conspiracy theories, and to trust their own judgment above all else when it comes to vaccination, may well do so.

Does anyone have an opinion about the requirement to check immunity before getting vaccinated.

I had booked my DD (15) to get vaccinated as she has not had CP and I'm particularly worried about her getting it as a teenager or adult.

I had booked to get the vaccination done privately but then I spoke to my GP who said that if I got the blood test done privately and she wasn't immune he would do the vaccination on the NHS. This will work out more expensive (blood test privately costs more than vaccinations privately).

If I get her vaccinated and she had infact had a very mild dose which we didn't notice (can't believe she did) would there be any harm? I'm just not sure why I need the blood test first. The private surgery said to just vaccinate.

No, but threads like this encouraging people to disregard NHS advice, believe that NHS recommendations are based on secret conspiracy theories, and to trust their own judgment above all else when it comes to vaccination, may well do so.

What ‘secret conspiracy theories’? The JCVI discussions and recommendations? They publish them online. If they’re trying to keep it a secret, they’re not doing a terribly good job.

People should make informed decisions based on the information available. The NHS does not advise against the varicella vaccine, so no one is being encouraged to ‘disregard NHS advice’.

Suggesting people should inform themselves with authoritative, publicly available information to help them decide whether to take up a particular approved vaccine or not is not suggesting they ignore NHS advice or saying they should trust their own judgement rather than expert information and advice is rather silly, and might make someone doubt your motives.

CharcoalToothpaste You sure that one was for chickenpox? I didn't think they had made a symptom free one? ...Unless it doesn't give everyone the symptoms?

But it gave me them and it was bloody torture. I just wouldn't give my kids that vaccine. All the other ones fine but not that one. Not unless it was symptom free guaranteed or something.

What secret conspiracy theory are you referring to pcohle?

We chose the vaccine for our youngest . One of my work colleagues son ended up in hospital with a horrible case of chicken pox.
Best money we ever spent no regrets at all .

@TeaForTheWin neither of my DC had any symptoms from their chickenpox vaccination (they did with MMR and MenB).

@NeurotrashWarrior. Thanks. Neither of my children is planning to get pregnant in the near future, but that's good to know for future reference, especially as someone I know had a miscarriage when she caught chicken pox from her toddler (she had thought she was immune because she didn't have it as a child despite being taken to many chicken pox parties).

might make someone doubt your motives

What sort of nefarious secret motives do you think I have? This is the sort of nonsense I'm talking about.

I'm not a doctor or an epidemiologist. I do not believe that I, nor most parents, are particularly well qualified to make decisions regarding the safety, efficacy or cost effectiveness of vaccines simply because I am a parent.

Telling people to "inform themselves with authoritative, publicly available information" is how you end up with mad anti-vaxxers who think they know better than the national medical establishment on the back of some half-cocked googling. Wakefield was published in the Lancet for god's sake - how on earth do you expect the average parent to make sensible decisions about which research is credible and reliable?

I didn't get it for DS for ages as I wasn't sure about it.

He's started school in September and wouldn't be allowed to go unless he had his chicken pox shots so I had to (or homeschool).

He's almost 6 so I don't mind so much now, chicken pox when you're older sucks.

What sort of nefarious secret motives do you think I have? This is the sort of nonsense I'm talking about.

No idea, but I can’t think of a good motive for so obviously misrepresenting what people have said.

Perhaps you can enlighten us on what ‘secret conspiracy theories’ you’re talking, and why you are accusing people of ‘disregarding’ NHS advice. The NHS does not advise against getting the varicella vaccine.

I'm not a doctor or an epidemiologist. I do not believe that I, nor most parents, are particularly well qualified to make decisions regarding the safety, efficacy or cost effectiveness of vaccines simply because I am a parent.

No. But we live in an open society so we can see why our health officials are making different choices than their counterparts in other western countries, and use that information to inform our own decisions on whether or not to vaccinate with a vaccine that is approved and available but not currently on the universal schedule.

If the authorities have made that decision based on behavioural impacts on the wider vaccine programme, particularly MMR, rather than eg on balance of medical risk or lack of individual benefit, then that informs one’s own decision.

My daughter is 3.5 years and hasn't caught CP yet
I was almost going to get vaccinated and then it started to circulate around her nursery so I didn't want to pay for it and for her to all ready be incubating it and it being a waste of money ...
Will wait and see if she gets it this time it's doing the rounds and then re look at it
We don't have loads of spare money and I always said we would get her the vaccine if she got to secondary school and hadn't had it
I would absolutely love to see it on the NHS schedule though

About half her nursery has been off with it ATM so I don't think vaccinating is common here

If the authorities have made that decision based on behavioural impacts on the wider vaccine programme, particularly MMR, rather than eg on balance of medical risk or lack of individual benefit, then that informs one’s own decision.

I think it's a little disingenuous to characterise the JCVI's views as being heavily based on behavioural impacts on the wider vaccine programme though.

For example “the sub-Committee had been presented with safety data on the varicella vaccines and the increased risk of febrile convulsions with the combined measles, mumps, rubella and varicella vaccine had been discussed and it was thought that parent’s views on the acceptability of the combined MMRV vaccine with double the risk of febrile seizures would need to be sought". (From the Oct 2015 minutes)

It's the doubled risk of febrile convulsions and the impact that will have on uptake of the combined vaccine that concern the committee. Not simply that adding a chickenpox vaccination to the schedule will put people off getting MMR.

It's exactly those sort of distinctions that I think individual parents are not always well placed to make. The risk of misunderstanding and, even well meaning, mischaracterisation of risks is high.

As for whether I have mischaracterised what you've said I'm not sure how I could do so when your views are here for everyone to read in your own words.

@TeaForTheWin hmm, that's not normal most people have very few side effects Personally neither of my kids had any side effects apart from a slightly sore spot each time where the jab was for a few hours

From the NHS website explaining why the CP vaccination is not available on the childhood schedule. This all makes perfect sense to me. The NHS may be an outlier compared to other Western countries but it doesn't mean their approach is wrong:-

I had chicken pox at 18 and I've never been as ill at any other time in my life. I had a fever over 40 and for several days was unable to keep any food or drink down until I was given medication. I had spots Everywhere, inside and out and they were totally disgusting. It really felt like a mediaeval pox. I had to take three weeks off work which went down Really well. My kids have had it, but fairly mildly, although my dd does have scars.

You know.. even with the vaccine you can get chicken pox, its just milder.

I got vaccinated, and I had chicken pox. But you can never catch it twice.

When your child does get it, you're probably going to have to take time off regardless. But the they'll never get it again.

Chicken pox and have serious complications, hence why there is a vaccine to lessen the effect.

I have absolutely no idea why anyone would want to put their childs well being at risk because of 'no real known stats' on vaccines. No news is good news? Is vaccines were at all putting children at risk they wouldnt be offered.

Bloody anti vaxxers

I ummed and ahhhed over getting the vaccine.

Then DC got chicken pox anyway so now that's all behind me.

Thankfully it wasn't too awful, and no bad scars but it's one of those things you can never be certain of.

I'm happy it's been through our family naturally as I think maybe it gives better immunity. But the vaccine hasn't really been about long enough for it to be certain it doesn't offer life long protection too.

So if money's no issue with it then I'd still probably say go for the vaccine. X

Just remember the top up when they're 18.

TeaForTheWin Its just as bad as the real thing and I still have pockmarks from it too.

What pockmarks? Ds had no symptoms at all, neither have the other children I know who have had it.

It's the doubled risk of febrile convulsions and the impact that will have on uptake of the combined vaccine that concern the committee. Not simply that adding a chickenpox vaccination to the schedule will put people off getting MMR.

That is the definition of a behavioural impact. That increase in the (very low) risk of febrile seizures with MMRV (which as JCVI noted are concerning to parents but self-limiting) may cause an increase in the number of parents that vaccinate, and that consultation work would need to be done if the updated shingles boosting modelling (2018) to determine whether this behavioural concern would have a significant impact. Given current issues around MMR uptake I understand this concern.

You’ve said I’ve told people to disregard NHS advice. Can you point to where the NHS advises people not to get the varicella vaccine? The public pages are very clear that it isn’t part of the childhood programme except for at risk groups, so most people can’t get it for free but most pages point out that you can get it privately.

The NHS pages stretch a little on the exogenous boosting of immunity to shingles (a lot more certain than the actual evidence and modelling), sure. But they set out their rationale (a little out of step with JCVI now, but never mind) for it not being in the programme, not a rationale for why individuals shouldn’t have the vaccination.

Don't do it. The risks are massive and massively go unrecorded so the statistics aren't right anyway where as chicken pox- even if it lasts a week and is horrible will then be over with actual lifetime immunity. I've had it and most people I know have had it with no bad side affects and it's over quick enough. I know plenty of people who've either been vaccine injured or their kids have or they know people who have. Why take that risk? Please don't do it.

People need to stop claiming that having the illness means lifelong immunity. It doesnt.

You can see the reported side effects of the Varivax vaccine and their incidence here