To be in two minds about the chicken pox vaccine

[trippingovertoysinthedark]

I’m really on the fence with this one.

On the one hand, I have two preschool children in full time childcare and a SE partner. Financially, we could be in trouble if we had to take time off work to look after them if/when they get chicken pox. Also, I don’t want them to be unwell.

However, on the other hand, them being unwell now might set them up for lifetime immunity and that would probably be ultimately better than the vaccine when it wanes - I’m also not a fan of vaccinating children when it isn’t needed, as vaccine damage can happen and yes tiny chance blah blah but why take that chance if you don’t have to? Although I haven’t read of any adverse reactions to the pox vaccine but then would I be likely to?

So I’m dithering here

For the record, DH, me and our DD had the CP vaccine last weekend and while it’s presumably possible we might still get some symptoms, none of the three of us has had any side effects at all yet. DH and I have somehow ever had it, and don’t want to now, and DD has missed it on the several occasions it’s been through the school.

You’ve said I’ve told people to disregard NHS advice.

Of course I haven't. I have expressed my view that "threads like these" encourage people to mistrust that the NHS is acting in the best interests of their child when it comes to vaccinations. I think it's incredibly short sighted not to recognise the impact that has when it comes to the anti-vaxx movement.

Hysterical threads like this claiming that chickenpox is an incredibly dangerous illness, that the NHS is dangerously out of step with other countries and that their advice is only based on cost/MMR/the elderly etc etc only serve to fear monger and undermine vaccination uptake.

Pcohle,nobody said it was dangerously out of step with other countries, just that it is out of step with other countries.

Really? I'm not sure we're reading the same thread!

Chicken pox just doesn’t seem to happen in Australian children any more. When you’re used to seeing children who are seriously sick from CP -related complications it’s hard to see that as anything other than a positive public health move.

My US family are horrified that we don't routinely vaccinate against it.

Etc etc

PCole

Your first comment is my quote. Your inference taken from this is wrong. It is possible to see first-hand the complications from CP by working in a hospital and still be aware that in most people it is a mild illness.

However, having lived and worked in a country with the vaccine and without it overall seems a positive move. Especially given that any theoretical concerns about increased complications in older people hasn’t been bourne out by countries like Japan and the US.

My first posts on this describe our initial ambivalence - please stop cherry-picking.

I'm sorry you feel my inference was wrong or that I've somehow taken your comment out of context. I quoted your comment in its entirety - it certainly wasn't my intention to misrepresent your views.

However I do struggle to see how one can suggest that the NHS should adopt the approach taken by other countries and offer the vaccine, and not accept that by necessary implication you are suggesting that the NHS is currently putting children in danger of, at least, the risk of complications.

I'm strongly pro-vaccination and I always find it frustrating how in their eagerness to encourage parents to privately vaccinate against chickenpox these threads always end up sewing scepticism towards the medical establishment.

PCohle

You talked about hysterical threads. Lots of posters have discussed their experiences of CP complications. There is a general acceptance that such complications are rare. I haven’t personally commented on whether the NHS should take up the vaccine so it’s also wrong to infer that I’m saying that it’s dangerous for it not to be on the schedule.

However, it is true that in Australia where there is a CP vaccine children are much much less likely to be hospitalised with CP related complications.

Why is pointing out this logical and factually true point hysterical?

Are the posters who have talked about their personal experiences of those rare CP complications also being hysterical?

Interestingly enough I am in NZ and the free chickenpox vaccine has only be introduced as part of the vaccine schedule in the past two years for babies. So it still has been common here for many years.

I believe children prior to the nationwide schedule were allowed free immunisation if they hadn't been infected by chickenpox by the time they finished primary school.

Vaccine damage?! Have you been reading the Daily Mail?

Vaccine wearing off?

I think you need to find some better sources of information.

If you can’t afford the time of work then get your kids vaccinated. But the real reason should be that you don’t want your kids to get a potentially very horrible disease.

You seem very dismissive of the “tales” of bad cases of chickenpox. In my experience it’s a bit of a myth that it’s just a mild illness. I’ve lost count of the number of friends and family members who have had awful cases. That’s why I got my kids vaccinated.

User, both vaccine damage and waning immunity are real. There is government funded vaccine damage compensation and there are plenty of studies into waning immunity. Perhaps you should consider finding some new sources of information yourself?

Yup. Is it rare? Of course - but then it’s also rare to get complications from chickenpox when it’s obtained as a child.

If your concern is about the vaccine wearing off in later life you could always ask your 18 year old children to get tested and then get a booster if needed?

Also, even when you get a normal dose of CP, its still pretty horrible. My oldest had an average dose of CP and was really ill for about a week and a half, now has some small scaring on his face.

I really don’t understand the concerns about immunity wearing off being a factor now. There are countries where it’s been part of the national vaccination programme for 10-20 years so if you vaccinate now and it does become apparent that immunity does decrease over time, there’ll be 10-20 years notice of this.

As long as you make your child aware that they’ve had the vaccine and not had the illness, there’s really no need for this concern.

@bumbleymummy please can you share links to the "plenty of studies into waning immunity"?

My view? My son had chicken pox. It wasn't that bad, but I'd rather he'd not have had it so I'd certainly have had him vaccinated had the vaccine existed then.

Yes, but it's still much much rarer to have terrible side effects from a vaccine than it is to have moderate to severe complications of chicken pox. This is quite clearly documented.

This is what confuses me a bit. I was anxious about vaccination when DS1 was little. It was 2008. The internet was a bit of a wild west on this issue, there simply wasn't good information out there. Overly simplistic info on the "pro" side and really massively scaremongering stuff from the "anti" side. It was really hard to trust either side, but I was leaning towards anti simply because the information I found there seemed more human and (dare I say) more honest - not this clean shiny well-polished answer you got from the pro side. I kept asking and asking what was the risk of complications from (various diseases) plus the chance of catching said disease, vs the risk of complications from the vaccination. I was so worried and frightened I would make the wrong choice for him. The only comparison of stats I could find were things that didn't take the chance of contracting the illness into account, which wasn't what I wanted. Nobody took vaccine anxiety seriously (except the antivaxxers...) and the objections to vaccination were seen as a bit of a joke.

I find it quite different now. Yes of course there are still people who get very angry about even the idea of questioning any vaccine but there is much more understanding and taking seriously of parents' fears, IME. Far more access to numbers and an understanding that avoiding negativity in reporting does little to allay fears, in fact it heightens them.

I think our generation is far more likely to want to know the background and the explanations for things, we don't just take information as gospel because it's presented by a healthcare professional. And I don't think there is anything wrong with wanting background information, it helps you to make an informed choice. But generally if you go looking for it now it is there, which is such a great thing. I am all for transparency.

Yup. Is it rare? Of course - but then it’s also rare to get complications from chickenpox when it’s obtained as a child.

Hi OP - did you find the WHO data I shared upthread on the relative incidences of both of these useful?

We got the vaccine for both of ours. Time off work for two with CP was one reason. Severity of the disease was the other reason.

No regrets. We also paid for the Men B jab before it was available on nhs for eldest before the national surge so got it at a good price also

My oldest girl has some scars on her body from CP & youngest has one on her face (adult/teen now). They both had a really nasty dose - it was not a 'mild childhood illness' in my experience. Vaccine was not availale back then as far as I know - wouldn't hesitate now.

I know what you mean, Bertie - I am much the same as you, although I am not sure I totally agree that this generation is more open to asking questions - see the first few pages!

I am a teacher so I’m on holiday from next week and the DCs are booked in then. I really hope I am making the right decision for all of us.

If your concern is about the vaccine wearing off in later life you could always ask your 18 year old children to get tested and then get a booster if needed?

I don't want to put my child into this position though, where they are required to keep their adult immunity topped up. I have no idea what the world will be like on 18 years time, in 50 years time, or 80 years time. If they need a booster I don't know if they will be available, I don't know if they will be able to afford it. Where will they live and in what circumstances? No idea. I can't even begin to picture it.

If they get chicken pox naturally as a toddler it's likely to be mild. Overwhelmingly likely, despite the scare stories on this thread. If they are then regularly naturally exposed to people with chicken pox throughout their adult life it will boost their immunity to shingles.

That is what I want for my children. That is why I am not vaccinating. If/when the landscape changes (which it is due to large numbers of private vaccinations) I'll reassess, as I presume the NHS will.

A lot of the parents on MN have older children and aren't in the same generation, though. But also I do find that the information about disease and vaccination is generally available. Especially for chicken pox. So it may be that most people have already done their research before being compelled to open a thread like this, whereas anyone still unsure or indifferent might read without responding or just pass it by totally.

TBH if I was in the UK I would not vaccinate for chicken pox, but the time off work would not be an issue for me. The expense would put me off. In Germany it's free and I'm not in the slightest bit concerned about my kids having the jab - they will have it. If I had reason to worry about chicken pox in the UK, whether for loss of earnings or perhaps a SN child who would not understand not to scratch, immune compromised family member, etc I would get it.

In conclusion - both vaccine and illness are trivial risks, I'd be happy taking either, I don't feel that one is overwhelmingly a better option than the other.

NB, full disclosure, I felt similar about MMR, 5-in-1 etc when DS1 first had them (delayed). Not that the disease and vaccine were trivial but that they were about equal in risk. I have since revised this opinion, and feel that the vaccines are extremely low risk, certainly much lower than the illnesses. I also understand herd immunity much better and the role of vaccination in this (doesn't apply for all diseases, but contagious ones absolutely.)

@WobblyLondoner I could but if you google ‘waning immunity varicella vaccine’, ‘waning immunity pertussis vaccine’ or ‘waning immunity mumps vaccine’ you can find the studies yourself. There are links to medical journals and most of them allow you free access.

This isn’t some crazy conspiracy theory. People know that vaccines wane (some more than others). It’s why there are outbreaks of certain diseases eg mumps in university or why they recommended adding an additional dose of the CP vaccine in 2006. Originally it was thought that one dose of the CP vaccine would give immunity for life.

Overwhelmingly likely, despite the scare stories on this thread.

This annoys me. It’s not scare stories. It’s what happened. I’ve literally just been through it twice over the last month. It was bloody horrendous - in fact if you search my username you’ll find my multiple posts about chicken pox, posts from the night where my non-verbal son screamed and hit himself in the head for seven hours straight. Where we spent hours waiting for 111 to call back but when they finally did he’d fallen asleep for 10 minutes and they closed the case. Posts from the next day where the GP was really dismissive, and later that day where a severe infection sprung up in less than an hour, or the days afterwards where he couldn’t stand or even sit upright because of the pain and swelling. If we had waited until the next morning to seek help because we hadn’t seen it before bed, he would have been at serious risk of sepsis.

His twin’s body is covered in scars, he has several very deep scars on his face.

These aren’t scare stories. If you decide not to vaccinate because you think the risk of severe complications is low enough you’re not worried, fine. But don’t dismiss people relating their experiences because it’s not what you want to hear.

Severe complications requiring hospitalisation are rare, death even more rare, but children being horribly ill for a week plus is not rare. The GP said she’d been seeing children every day with severe chicken pox / secondary skin infections for a few weeks by that point.

We’ve had an endless stream of colds, chest infections, ear infections, even norovirus hitting all four of us at once, and these were nothing compared to chicken pox. The only thing worse that we’ve had is DT2 contracting whooping cough as a tiny preemie.

Vaccinate or don’t, but I think when people say “mild illness”, they think of a nasty cold with a few itchy spots. I know a couple of people who’ve had that experience but far more who’ve had a horrid time, even if they don’t feature in hospitalisation statistics.

And aside from the loss of earnings, the hardest thing for me was being quarantined for more than three weeks, it was awful!