12th of July

[starbuckslover]

Apologies for posting this in AIBU, I was sure where to put it but..

AIBU form not understanding why people in Northern Ireland still celebrate the 12th of July (and the 11th night), in such an epic fashion? A country that voted for and signed the Good Friday Agreement, begging for peace to then light bonfires burning Irish flags, and marching gleefully in memory of a war that resulted in the death and oppression of goodness knows how many Catholics, is more than a little hypocritical?

How can this still be happening? I know people who are so anxious about brexit as it could upset the peace process who are out watching the marches today..how?!

Also, most place in NI are integrated now so Protestant and Catholic people are living as neighbours. How can these Protestant people go to parades that celebrate their neighbour's persecution...

I would fee the same if there were catholic parades for the same thing...so I am really not on one side or the other.

If anyone can help me to understand how such a huge group of (many) educated, sensible people (I know lots aren't, but many are normal everyday, semi-liberal citizens), can be so hypocritical I would be very grateful...🤷‍♀️

@Moralitym1n1 - Was it partitioned did to a foreign power or partitioned due to settlers (many settled there for hundreds of years) wanting it to be?

It was partitioned by the British government because a small, but powerful, minority objected to independence. The border was chosen to maximise territory while also ensuring a sufficiently high unionist majority to ensure dominance.

You keep going on about how Irish people should understand there is nothing personal in the burning of the tricolour but you seem incapable of understanding the nationalist position on NI and Ireland.

partitioned due to settlers (many settled there for hundreds of years)

You do make the plantation sound like such a benign event.

When would you say there began to be a threat to their dominant position (or position at all)?

Soon after plantation when they were regularly attacked, burned out, killed?

During the Jacobite war?

During the Wolf Tone rebellion?

During the Easter rising?

During the home rule movement?

jesus christ. you couldn't make this ignorant bigoted shit up.

But so glad you used the word plantation in your post (probably through ignorance in fairness). You don't know what plantation meant - but many of us do. It meant people coming over, stealing land from others and banishing them from their own country. But you seem to see them as victims. It is almost funny that you think people should be able to "plant" as in steal property from other people without being fought for it.

And as for the rest of the history trotted out. You have no clue - the greatest thrust of the home rule movement was led by a protestant ffs.

Reading posts like that I can well understand why small people are still marching up and down beating a drum thinking it matters.

Brits out 🇮🇪

An intelligent, sensible, well thought out, well argued, intellectual response to my post on the idea of a historic Irish nation.

Thank you so much.

Such a high calibre poster, I feel privileged to have communicated with you.

You do realise the triumphant crowing like yours about "when the vote comes" and northern Ireland is dissolved is one of the reasons those unionists are so scared and hard-line.

No they used to be scared and hard line because they realised they were a shrinking majority and they hated catholics. They are scared now because they know Britain doesn't want them. That is why brexit is so hard for them - they are literally seeing the people they have lickarsed for centuries because "we are British" say "well a united ireland might be a solution?"

Well you kind of said that anyone who wants to be Irish should get out though?

(Note I don't agree with those sentiments and stuff like that is just as petty as burning flags imo and should stay in the past)

It really doesn't - the degree is the qualification. You might choose to drive a bus for an occupation

"While many historians are professionals with graduate degrees... "

Some of the posters expressing their opinions itt don't know the difference between your and you're, and write like they're drunk.

Says the person who claims to have extensively studied Irish history, yet doesn't know that the Irish constitutional claim to NI was removed in order to facilitate the Good Friday Agreement.

You seem to know very little about the GFA actually, seeing as you believe Irish people in the North should just up and move to ROI (you'd love that, wouldn't you?). Guess what, their right to identify as Irish and hold Irish citizenship is upheld in the law. You may not like it but it doesn't change the reality.

@Moralitym1n1
My goodness me, lighten up and watch you don't fall too hard from your high horse up there.
As it happens, I'm extensively educated and an award winning writer. I've had a few works published, some of which are about 'The Troubles'
However, it's late and on a Friday night, and after some wine, my brain is somewhat disengaged. I'm too tired to put together a coherent argument so that we can have some sensible and meaningful debate.
Whilst my comment was intended to be a little tongue in cheek, it actually broadly summarises my desired outcome.

As you were.

While many historians are professionals with graduate degrees

I can be a professional civil servant with a graduate degree in history. You seem to not understand the simplest things. I can see why your understanding of history is so poor.

@StoneofDestiny

My take on that sentence is that they are working as professional historians. I find your take odd.

Oh and I have similar feelings about your intellect.

@Moralitym1n1

When the Nazis occupied vast swathes of Europe in WW2, should the residents of those countries have immediately accepted their new German identity and forgotten their true nationality and culture? You seem to be suggesting that the moment a foreign power decides to occupy territory, the natives should just accept it. That the Irish in NI should just accept that Britain took the land by force, and to hell with their history.

and after some wine, my brain is somewhat disengaged.

Yeah I had the distinct feeling some posters on here were hitting the vino.

Whilst my comment was intended to be a little tongue in cheek, it actually broadly summarises my desired outcome

Think normal people took it as intended.

@Sakura7

You make no difference between a military invasion and a centuries long colonisation. Ok then.

@Moralitym1n1

Care to address my point? Why should the native people accept occupation?

Sorry, phone acting up ..

Sometimes fighting against the world's soon to be most powerful empire doesn't work.

Oh and I have similar feelings about your intellect

ouch.........like being savaged by a dead sheep 😂😂

Yeah I had the distinct feeling some posters on here were hitting the vino

Is everyone who is voicing their disagreement drunk? Or just the Irish ones? Typical, right?

You make no difference between a military invasion and a centuries long colonisation. Ok then.

Well a previous poster was bemoaning the fact that the planters were regularly attacked, burned out, killed as if this was shocking in an invasion.

And *centuries long colonisation" sounds like a happy peaceful colonisation over many centuries. It was never like that. The Irish were rebelling against their invaders from the start and never really stopped - well except for their parliamentary "rebellions" which the same poster seemed to think were a direct threat to the beleagured planters.

But I have addressed your point, the Irish (including my ancestors incidentally) tried to fight occupation over centuries and failed. They were forced to accept it, they were left with people who'd colonised there over hundreds of years.

@pallisers

That was my post and you've gotten the wrong end of the stick - which is understandable.

I was responding to a poster who wondered why unionists who parade didn't stop when they became dominant. I was trying to explain that they never felt dominant/secure.

But I have addressed your point

Except you haven't. But just for the sake of argument, if Germany had won WW2 do you think all the people of the occupied countries should have just forgetten their history and identity? If there was a French resistance today, do you think they should just shut up and accept that they are Germans now?

ouch.........like being savaged by a dead sheep

How and why would a dead sheep savage someone?

Is it a zombie sheep?

Actually don't answer that - please.

@Sakura7

Yes, I have.

You are equating the English colonisation of Ireland from Norman times to the present day, with Nazi Germany's occupation of European countries.

And to repeat my answer again - I think the occupied/invaded should fight as hard as they can .. but unfortunately with a much stronger power, and people in your own country selling you out, as happened in both countries of my ancestors (Donegal in Ireland and Scotland) sometimes you can't win.