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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to not want to sign off my emails with preferred pronouns?

838 replies

AlphaBites · 10/07/2019 21:46

We've had an email do the rounds today at work saying in the next few weeks all staff are expected to sign off with their preferred pronouns, to save any embarrassment for any staff. Hmm

I don't want to.

Can I fight this somehow?

OP posts:
OldCrone · 11/07/2019 12:57

Why would a transvestite male be any more likely to physically harm you than any other man?

But some men are violent. If you thought this particular one might be one of those violent men, you might be inclined to call him 'she' to appease him.

I’d have thought a bit less likely actually.

Can you explain your reasoning here? I don't think there's any evidence that cross-dressing men, or even 'transwomen', are any less violent than other men.

Lifeover · 11/07/2019 12:59

This is bound to happen in our ever so politically correct work place. I might just effect Her Royal Highness Lifeover!

colourlessgreenidea · 11/07/2019 13:01

@Colourlessgreenidea - I was agreeing with your post BTW - but by taking apart your first statement in that way it looks like I'm taking issue with you personally. That didn't come across in the way I meant it!

My fault for not bolding when I quoted a pp in order to ‘flip’ their glib admonishment to “just be nice” Smile

Notcopingwellhere · 11/07/2019 13:04

OldCrone the statement I was responding to did not say that the person would be afraid of a specific man dressed as a woman who was someone that they thought might be violent. Just a man dressed as a woman. The implication was that all men dressed as women are to be feared.

Yes, some men are violent. But most men are not. We can’t go round worrying all the time about all men harming us, that is an insane way to live.

As for why I feel a transvestite might be less likely to be violent than a man dressed in male clothes, just a gut feeling that violence is quite a macho thing, whereas wearing women’s clothes is not macho. Not suggesting any scientific basis for my gut feeling.

jellyfrizz · 11/07/2019 13:07

Why does this bother you though? It takes 2 seconds to add into your email signature, and on the off-chance that you email someone who it affects, you will be helping them feel as though the world is a slightly nicer place.

Because signifying you are a female on your email means this happens: www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/gender-inequality-man-woman-switch-names-week-martin-schneider-nicky-knacks-pay-gap-a7622201.html

Why should we have to list something that has no bearing on our work and causes bias against us?

Beamur · 11/07/2019 13:09

A more sensible approach would be to ask people to use only gender neutral pronouns for everyone.
No one ever gets misgendered that way.
Probably beneficial to women too given the comments in this thread from many women happy to obscure this fact about themselves as it is useful to do so.

Ineedhelptocope · 11/07/2019 13:11

Yes, some men are violent. But most men are not. We can’t go round worrying all the time about all men harming us, that is an insane way to live
Oh, I think we DO.

85,000 reported rapes last year
Estimated 40,000+ unreported
An average of 46,850 unique visitors to Rape Crisis website per month
One in 5 women have been sexually assaulted.

just a gut feeling that violence is quite a macho thing
FFS Hmm

Throckmorton · 11/07/2019 13:11

Stats show similar levels of violence in transwomen as in men.

Notcopingwellhere · 11/07/2019 13:11

courlessgreenidea

The op didn’t say that they constantly feared violence from any man they may offend.

However, it is a legitimate concern: male aggression/violence against women is a widespread and well-documented issue. Surely you’re aware of this?

My post wasn’t referring to the OP. It was in response to another poster who said they’d only call a man dressed as a woman “she” because they were terrified of him.

And of course I know that male violence towards women is an issue. What an odd thing to ask! But I am not sure that working on the basis that all men are violent and terrifying is the way to address it.

Someone asked me to Google Karen White. So what? I could Google Myra Hindley but that would not be evidence that all women are murderers.

Notcopingwellhere · 11/07/2019 13:14

Ineedhelptocope

I am sorry that you live your life in such disproportionate fear. Must indeed be tough for you.

SlocombePooter · 11/07/2019 13:18

notcoping tell that to the unfortunate female prisoners Karen White was locked up with, and sexually assaulted.

You come across as pretty callous.

Ineedhelptocope · 11/07/2019 13:19

*Notcopingwellhere

Is that an attempt at sarcasm?

G5000 · 11/07/2019 13:45

The title at least makes sense, as I might want to start my email to you with 'Dear Ms Smith'. I will not refer to you as she or them when I'm emailing you, will I? And if you work in an office of more than a handful of people, so can't remember everybody's preferred gender identity, are you expected to check email signatures every time you want to mention someone else in other conversations? "So I was talking to Jane and....wait a second, let me log in...aha, here it is, they say that...". Because it would be misgendering if they have specified the pronoun and you get it wrong.

OrdinarySnowflake · 11/07/2019 13:50

@WonkoTheSane42 - just as an aside - I'm in my 40s, went to primary school in the 80s, it was considered not good teaching practice to teach children the words for words, "noun" "adjective" "verb" etc, that was considered very old fashioned, and not taught in state primary schools. I first heard those discriptions for words in French lessons in Secondary school, never once in an English lesson, and even then it wasn't clearly explained. Lots of people born in the late 70s had similar eduction and was the 5/6 years when this was out of favour as a way of teaching reading/understanding of our language.

My sibling 3 years older than me did learn them and younger cousins 8 years younger did as well, but a lot of people fell in between, this isn't something you'd really pick up again unless you studied forgeign languages (which also were not compulsory in state schools for our age group).

Notcopingwellhere · 11/07/2019 14:13

Ineedhelp no. SlocombePooter your argument makes no sense. How does saying that not all transvestites are violent diminish the offences of one violent one, any more than saying that not all men are violent diminishes the offences of the Yorkshire Ripper. This isn’t a debate about whether transwomen should be imprisoned with cis women. It is a comment that it is unfair to make sweeping statements about any particular group. You’re getting your debates mixed up.

OldCrone · 11/07/2019 14:17

Notcopingwellhere
the statement I was responding to did not say that the person would be afraid of a specific man dressed as a woman who was someone that they thought might be violent. Just a man dressed as a woman. The implication was that all men dressed as women are to be feared.

This is the statement you responded to: The only reason I would call an obvious man in a dress and lipstick "she" is because I was terrified of him.

The 'implication' is that if the man in a dress appeared harmless, they wouldn't use 'she', but if he looked like someone who might turn violent, they would.

As for why I feel a transvestite might be less likely to be violent than a man dressed in male clothes, just a gut feeling that violence is quite a macho thing, whereas wearing women’s clothes is not macho.

Many men who 'transition', often following many years of cross-dressing, have very violent histories. For example, Kellie Maloney attempted to strangle his wife, and Jane Fae says about men who kill their female partners: "Most murder is boring, pedestrian, even accidental stuff. Somewhere between a third and a half result from too much alcohol. A high proportion are domestic violence “gone wrong”. A blow struck one time too many: an egg-shell skull." As John Ozimek, Fae was an advocate of extreme porn (the sort which is currently illegal).

Not suggesting any scientific basis for my gut feeling.

A little research will show your gut feeling to be totally wrong.

OldCrone · 11/07/2019 14:22

Forgot to add that a majority of the men who transition in prison are violent offenders and about 50% are sex offenders.

SlocombePooter · 11/07/2019 14:25

notcoping you don't seem keen on women responding to their gut feelings.

Ineedhelptocope · 11/07/2019 14:29

This isn’t a debate about whether transwomen should be imprisoned with cis women

I think you meant with 'women' in a WOMEN'S prison. I have yet to see any sign for a women's prison include the word 'cis'. FFS

WeBuiltThisBuffetOnSausageRoll · 11/07/2019 14:37

*Or you could do one teeny tiny thing that will take

Notcopingwellhere · 11/07/2019 14:44

Sorry i thought that cis was the vocabulary used to be clear when drawing a comparison between transwomen and women born female at birth. I am not a pro-trans activist, I have no great interest in the subject but I’ve crossed paths professionally and personally with a few men who dress as women and they’ve all been pretty harmless so was just sticking up for them in response to a statement which I read as “I am terrified of all men dressed as women”. Perhaps I misread that statement. I am also happy to accept that there is evidence that they are statistically more violent than the general population of men, I did not know that (hence my use of the words “think” and “gut feeling”.)

I’m still shocked though that anyone would fear all men on a daily basis just because some are violent. Can’t imagine how a person would function in such fear.

Poloshot · 11/07/2019 14:45

What a load of BS, ignore it OP

TroubleWithNargles · 11/07/2019 14:45

I work for a firm owned by deeply devout GodBotherers.

We won't be doing this. Thank God Grin

BuzzShitbagBobbly · 11/07/2019 14:47

"You do want to be polite, don't you?"

Well, that attempt at a "gotcha" fell flat on its (his/her/zie/their) arse didn't it!

SlocombePooter · 11/07/2019 14:48

Nargles your piety does you credit ;-)