To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

Nah. Anyone who seriously thinks they can't tell who's a man or who's a woman needs massive help. We all know. That's how we have babies, it's how humanity survives. You are 100% deluding yourself that society just takes a random chance on guessing when babies are born, and its hilarious to read, it doesn't help your cause at all.

Gender (again) is bullshit and should be wiped out as a construct. All it does is hurt people.

@CuriousaboutSamphire - seriously, how do you know you're a woman? Without looking at your body? What do you feel you are? You see that's the point isn't it? I have never made any claim about feeling like a woman. EVer! ONLY transwomen seem to do that.

I know I am female because, even when I keep my eyes tightly closed, my body does female things, usually once a month during fertile years and now, at the end of them, again even with my eyes closed, I can feel the physical symptoms of menopause.

I do NOT have a strong sense of FEMALE IDENTITY - I wouldn't know what that was if it walked up and shook hands. I have a strong CURIOUS IDENTITY - it's the only identity I have ever inhabited, it is ME!

So is my feeling that I don't feel like I'm female invalid? Erm... again the inverted logic...

what you are is either male or female, which isn't the case. Erm, oh, never mind, You obviously think that is a very clever point, no matter how many biologists and physiologists (I am one of the latter) tell you otherwise.

gender is male/female. Sex is male/female. Sadly we haven't got 2 sets of words. Yes, we do! Some languages even have a third (maybe a fourth and fith too).

Personally I'm agender. I don't identify strongly as male or female. I'd be happy wherever my brain was, and I'm not bothered. Which is the point every single gender critical woman has been saying, including me! We are all agender, non gender by Stonewall's definition.. and that makes us all Trans...

And a man is never a female - because a transwmoman is a woman in her identity. She also has traits that medicine defines as male. So what is all that other pfaff about? If you know men are not women and no matter how hey present they are still male, what exactly have you been arguing about?

What risks are you talking about? Don't be lazy, go do the reading yourself! Ands then come back and see if you still agree with your trie dismissal of the existing and possible risks TRAs pose to women!

I'm just trying to point out how your definition of woman as exclusively 'Adult human female' is silly If you think that post is in any way sophisticated you are sadly mistaken!

Sophistry yes, whether intended or not! Sophisticated, no!

Don't be lazy, go do the reading yourself! Ands then come back and see if you still agree with your trie dismissal of the existing and possible risks TRAs pose to women!

How am I being lazy? You told me to look at the "it never happens" threads - I'm asking you what medical risks am I looking for? I can't think of any risks that trans men or trans women pose to the health of anyone but themselves. If you know if any why not state them?

As for the last part - this is a thread about medical reasons why birth sex needs to be recorded so that is what I am considering on this thread.

Xarra

You're talking bollocks. You've just given the definition of a woman to mean a man or a woman.

You are conflating sex and gender. You are saying they're both mean male or female. They don't.

Male and female are biological categories. Masculine and feminine are attributes and behaviours attributed by society. Look up the definition in the dictionary and everywhere else. Even WHO will tell you the same.

In fact, almost everywhere says exactly the same. Including trans groups. Apart from a handful of daft transactivists.

Your argument appears to be that certain words have two meanings, so let's change the words of male and female to include the opposite.

Adults need to be able to categorise people for a zillion different reasons. Budgeting, provision of hospital services, schools, clothing, maternity care. All sorts of reasons.

Particularly when sexism is involved. If you can't identify which sex is being disadvantaged, you can't address it.

Claiming that there is no difference between men and women apart from that some are masculine and some are feminine isn't going to cut the mustard, I'm afraid.

But a transwoman IS a woman. They identify as a woman. They feel like they're a woman.

And you might think you're agender, great. You'd be perfectly comfortable if someone took your brain and put it in a male body? You'd be happy to live with a penis? Fine.

Trans* is where the brain doesn't match the body, so if I understand correctly, it's the equivalent of taking someone who IDs as male, who thinks of themselves as a man's man, and putting them in a menstrating body with breasts. Strangely, they're not happy.

And generally, people's sex matches their gender. Sometimes it doesn't. And you can't tell by looking at someone's bits what's in their head.

And @yulet - you've probably met many transwomen and transmen and gendered them correctly. You just haven't realised.

this is a thread about medical reasons why birth sex needs to be recorded so that is what I am considering on this thread. Oh! Was I hard of reading again? No! I understood that and tehre are a number of examples on various threads in FWR. Some helpfully pulled together in the It Never Happens or Lay It All Out for Me style threads.

I have read them, as have many other posters posting here. Some have been in national newspapers, all sorts of media.. yes, specifically health issues. Go do some reading. You have dismissed, seemngly, all that has been posted here!

Do people actually think they are having an adult conversation when they say things like what would happen if I took your brain out and put it in a man's body. They can't honestly think that anyone would take them seriously

But a transwoman IS a woman. They identify as a woman. They feel like they're a woman. So when you said you do NOT identify or feel like a woman does that mean that you are, in fact, a man then? Or one of those womenmen you are trying to get us to believe in?

you've probably met many transwomen and transmen and gendered them correctly. You just haven't realised. Has she fuck! Many do not exist... ONS data. Passing rarely occurs, less so in transwomen than transmen. And yes, I do know trns individuals personally. Have done since the 1980s and neither of them pass! Not even after 30 years of practice!

You are still talking hogwash and the supposedly clever double talk is laughably peurile!

@Datun

You can get masculine 'biological' women who identify as women, and feminine 'biological' men who identify as men. You can get feminine 'biological' women who identify as transmen.

Feminine isn't a gender. It's a type of behaviour and way of acting.

Male is a way we identify people with a penis. It's also a gender of people who are male psychologically.

The word can be used for 2 things. Doesn't mean people with a penis are both sex = male and gender = male. They can physically have a penis and psychologically be a woman.

Saying someone is gay, could be saying they're happy, or saying they're homosexual. It doesn't actually mean they're both.

Saying someone is female, could be saying their biological sex is female, or their gender is female, the word female means different things here.

How can a man be a woman? It’s like when you see a poor wee orphan skunk that gets adopted by a mummy cat and people say ‘awwww, wee stinky thinks she’s a cat!’.

The skunk is not and never will be a cat. You only have to watch the series of documentaries ‘Pepe Le Pew’ to understand that.

There's some laughable nonsense on this thread which helps to show lurkers that yes they really are trying to say....

Sex and gender are interchangeable
Words have no meaning
Sex isn't binary

And other daft things.

And generally, people's sex matches their gender.

What do you mean by gender here? And when you say gender identity, what is is that people are identifying with?

Up is Down
Day is night
Black is white...

But a transwoman IS a woman. They identify as a woman. They feel like they're a woman.

Using this space, and every single word in the English language at your disposal, just give me the top five attributes that a man could possibly have, or think, that would make him feel he's female.

I tell you what I'll make it easier, just the top three.

Do you know what? just one.

Just. One. Attribute.

But a trans woman isn’t a woman. Not at all. Not even slightly.(since:you like short, clear pronouncements.)

And ‘ you’ve probably met many trans women and trans men and gendered them correctly. You just haven’t realised.’

If you mean by that that they hardly ever ‘pass’ to anyone with functional eyesight ? True, true.

Xarra Who do you think you are responding to?

Are you under the impression that you have some new ideas to impart, that any poster here needs such simplistic prattle repeating to them?

I have no idea who you are, obvously, but I would hazard a guess that you are very young and have not yet fully honed your debating skills! Underestimating the intelligence of your foe is a serious error... Datun in particular will not be in any way swayed by that last post. She will just be sat there shaking her head wondering how the hell she got into this specific spat with you and how to get out of it without being very rude to you!

“War is peace/ freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.”

I did say it was hogwash

I've met many trans people in my circle. I manage to use correct pronouns when informed of them. Some I gender correctly first time, some I don't.

Personally, I'm agender. I don't identify as male or female. I just use she/her for ease and because I don't care. :) However I've spoken to people who would feel very uncomfortable in a body of the opposite gender because that's not who they are.

And I'm sorry if you can't put yourselves in someone else's shoes and use your imagination occassionally to see how you'd feel if you didn't have a body and if you'd still identify as your bodily sex?

Yes, it does get more complex when you bear in mind a heart doesn't have a gender, so a penis should also be able to be a female penis (i.e. the penis belonging to someone who mentally identifies a female) but it took me a while to get my head round.

p.s. I'm for having bodily sex and gender recorded separately by doctors and people treated for their physical features and addressed and respected as their gender. :)

Female penis. Bingo!

Xara, this is like The Emperor's New Clothes, and by the same token the phrase "if you hear hooves don't look for a donkey" applies.

Generally, if you have a vagina, ovaries and XX chromosomes, you're female. If you have a penis, tested and XY chromosomes, you're male. There can be mix-ups, either in gene expression or genitalia, but for most babies that are born, this will be true.

1. Some people don't feel like they 'should' be their born sex and wish they were the opposite sex. I don't think many people have a problem with that concept.

1. Some people want to make physical changes to more closely resemble the sex they wish they were. I don't think a lot of people have an issue with that, although there are ethical issues with vulnerable people and adolescents.

1. Some people want other people to address them with their preferred pronoun. The majority of people would comply on an individual level, even if philosophically they disagree with the concept.

1. Some people claim that by doing the above they are now the opposite sex. That's where a significant proportion of people have an issue. Because it is a conflation of sex and gender. You can get a Gender Recognition Certificate, but this is not a sex recognition certificate. You have not changed sex, even if you've had surgical procedures.

1. Some people who have transitioned want other people to agree with them that they've changed sex. That's The Emperor's New Clothes. It shouldn't be expected.

1. Some people want to be provided with medical services exclusively provided for their desired sex, which should not, in my opinion, be facilitated in any way.

Xarra, not Xara, sorry.