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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

933 replies

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 09/07/2019 11:17

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 09/07/2019 12:21

I think that this is a decision that should be discussed and decided (by consensus) by the trans community, you know, the people who are actually impacted by it.

Who do you consider to be the trans community? The Stonewall definition of trans includes just about everyone, including me.

Hurradieweltgehtunter · 09/07/2019 12:21

Pronouns aren't slurs, they are for other people to use in reference to you. If someone believes they have changed sex but people grounded in material reality don't believe that is the case then there is no imperative for them to play along if they don't want to.
It's like saying it is religious hatred for me not to believe in transubstantiation. I am happy for Christians to believe that all they want as long as I don't have to play along. If that upsets the feelings of people, it is the reminder of material reality/someone having a different opinion that is upsetting, not transphobia/religious hatred.
You can't argue (inaccurately) that 'TERF' is just a descriptor and use it as a misogynistic slur to silence women, then call foul when people describe you as they see fit.

Datun · 09/07/2019 12:22

CassandraGemini

At a medical appointment recently where treatment would vary according to my biology, I was asked to point to a laminated sheet to choose which procedure I felt applicable to me - they were not allowed to assume based on my appearance.

Good lord. What on earth would they have done if you had chosen the wrong anatomy? That of your gender, rather than your sex?

How far would they take it?

There are absolutely people who would deliberately choose the wrong one, in order to get validation.

Are they going to play a game of chicken as to who caves first, whilst they're wielding the scalpel??

Madness.

PinkyU · 09/07/2019 12:26

We all have the right to refuse treatment and diagnostic tests, if a transgender individual chooses to opt out of treatment/testing then (as exists for everyone with capacity) that is their choice.

The conversation has to be had within the trans community as to the responsibility of individuals to disclose previous gender/current physiological traits not inkeeping with their legal gender, and of any litigious recourse for HCPs for misdiagnosis based on presenting gender.

I.e who responsibility is it to ensure biological specific treatment/tests are administered with consent and as necessary.

For me this is a difficult discussion. We all usually disclose pertinent medical information to HCP who we don’t have regular contact with. However, when a HCP is presented with an unknown individual they have a responsibility to review key aspects of their medical history/current medication. Surely for a HCP it shouldn’t be too difficult to discern a trans person based on the type of and dosage of medications prescribed (testosterone, oestrogen) and then ask relevant questions sensitively.

PinkyU · 09/07/2019 12:35

Fanny, those things are nothing to do with this individual discussions has ugh are they? They are important issues, of course, but they’re not relevant to this specific subject, so no clue as to why you’re attempting to obfuscate this discussion.

PinkyU · 09/07/2019 12:36

Who are in the trans community?

Those who identify as trans. Seems fairly obvious.

CassianAndor · 09/07/2019 12:41

Pinky Stonewall's definition of trans is so broad as to pretty much include anyone. So who makes up the trans community isn't in the least bit obvious.

SciFiScream · 09/07/2019 12:43

@Dontsweatthelittlestuff a trans man is someone who was born female. They will absolutely need a smear test.

A trans woman was born male. They won't need a smear test.

whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 09/07/2019 12:43

@PinkyU

There is no such thing as legal gender, because there is no such thing as gender itself. It is a societal construct based on stereotypes and assumptions on what roles, traits, appearance etc. a male or female should have. I've never been able to get an answer from anyone when I've asked about the specific aspects of womanhood that trans women want to possess. Bearing in mind that our biological sex is confirmed in every cell in our bodies and can't be changed, what else is it about being a woman that they actually want?

That is not hate or phobia, it is understanding and respecting biology. I have never seen a TRA acknowledge the impact they are having on biological women, or children of either sex who are encouraged to transition at such young ages that they know nothing about what it means to be either a woman or a man since they have no knowledge about what it means to even be an adult, never mind anything more specific!

DixieFlatline · 09/07/2019 12:48

previous gender

Hmm
whatwouldbigfatfannydo · 09/07/2019 12:49

@PinkyU

You indicated that the trans community are the only ones who should have a say as others are not impacted by this and that those who disagree are misinformed. I gave examples showing that that isn't the case. I was also very clear and in no way unintelligible.

Also, the issue of trans rights being responsible for the erasure of women's rights is absolutely relevant to this specific topic as it only proves how people are being silenced and simultaneously accused of hate and transphobia for simply trying to protect our existing rights.

DecomposingComposers · 09/07/2019 12:50

I agree PinkyU

Surely it's up to each individual whether they take up any screening and it's the responsibility of the individual to make sure that there HCPs have any necessary information they need.

If they choose to miss out on cervical or prostate screening because they don't record their biological sex then that's their right to do so, surely?

Why is it up to the rest of us to dictate on their behalf?

emerencealwayshopeful · 09/07/2019 12:50

OP.

Not unreasonable in the least.

It's insanity that even asking that question is possible.

Of course medical professionals need accurate information easily accessible.

And pronouns matter. Coercing people into using 'preferred pronouns' isn't benign.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/07/2019 12:50

The conversation has to be had within the trans community as to the responsibility of individuals to disclose previous gender/current physiological traits not inkeeping with their legal gender, and of any litigious recourse for HCPs for misdiagnosis based on presenting gender. Os it just me or is that circular logic, flawed logic?

Within the trans community is probably the issue. Within the trans community, whomever chooses to step inside, all sorts of discussionss are being had, decisons made. They then step outside of that community and are, apparently, utterly gobsmacked that the rest of the world doesn't wholeheartedly agree with them!

Shut up for a moment, listen to what the outside world is trying to tell you. Open your ears, listen without prejudice and actually try to comprehend the different issues other people have, issues you may never even have considered.

PinkyU · 09/07/2019 12:53

So gender doesn’t exist because it’s a societal construct?

Marriage
Government
Racism

These things clearly mustn’t exist either then?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/07/2019 12:55

Why is it up to the rest of us to dictate on their behalf? It isn't - until a transwoman turns up for cervical screening and wastes NHS time and money.

Or a transman is invited for prostate screening and does not get offered cervical screening...

Or various organisations start gearing up for ever increasingly violent women, women start being recorded as being as violent as men... when actually, well yer 'onner, Twas a transwoman with sweaty bollocks that did for me!

That sort of thing. The sort of shit that is actually an out and out lie. A fallacy. A delusion. One that absolutely requires other people to go along wth it or be persecuted and prosecuted.

And that is before you get on to predatory males, violence against women and girls etc etc.

If you have eyes open them!

ManyBoysMum · 09/07/2019 12:56

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PinkyU · 09/07/2019 12:57

Fanny I specified “this discussion”.

This is a discussion about the health of people within the trans community, therefore it is THEIR decision to make as it impacts them.

ManyBoysMum · 09/07/2019 13:01

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CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/07/2019 13:01

These things clearly mustn’t exist either then? Go on then, tell me how that works.

Government - a body of elected people who rule... yep, they exist, you can touch it, measure it, quantify it, it changes according to a set of rules that each society set up.
Race - yep. Can be seen, measured, quantified, usally via related monogenic conditions.
Sex - yep. Can be measured, quantified, gametes and all that
Gender - well, erm, I can see an outward presentation and a set of behaviours that various cultures associate with desirable male and female traits; traits that change between cultures; traits that change within cultures...

I can clearly see how those things have varying degres of immutability. How about you?

Xarra · 09/07/2019 13:01

Thing you are all missing:

Sex is not gender.
Gender is not sex.

Pretty much every trans* person I know, is well aware that they are 'biologically' defined as male or female (although when was the last time you had your chromosomes tested? It's possible to be XY with a vagina due to genetic weirdness, or look biologicaly female but actually be XY or have extra chromosomes.)

What I believe trans* people are saying is their GENDER, their 'internal' feeling of being male or female, doesn't match their physical sexual organs. Some can live with this, some can't and transistion, having physical changes made.

This isn't helped by the fact that the English words for GENDER and SEX are basically the same, and they've been used interchangeably. So someone can have the internal certainty they are male (i.e. gender), but 'biologically' they present as female (i.e. sex).

Trans* people do not believe they are becoming a woman as far a medicine would need to know, they're not stupid, a transwoman is still aware she is at risk of prostate cancer, and a transman can still have periods, they KNOW they are female gender. This is a subtle but important difference.

That laminated card? It's because they don't want to assume your sex, and therefore are asking in case you have a body part that doesn't actually 'usually' exist in the sex you appear to be.

I'm sterilised. I still get asked if I'm sure I'm not pregnant. They can't assume that I'm not fertile, because that's dangerous.

And, yes, you may utterly KNOW you are female. Think of it it this way, if your brain was taken out of your body and able to keep functioning, the vast majority of people on here would KNOW you were female. Insintricly. Unrelated to where your brain was - on a shelf, in a male body, in a robot, you, yourself, would KNOW you were female. That is your gender identity, unrelated to your sex.

Personally, I don't have that KNOWING feeling, I can't comprehend how someone can know they're male so much that they want their body to reflect that. I don't know I'm female. If you took my brain out, I don't have a gender identity - I'm agender. However, my medical sex is female, so I still have screenings, and check my breasts, and I've had kids. But I've spoken to others who do have that KNOWING feeling, trans and cis, so I know it exists. And just because you KNOW your gender is female and your sex is female, doesn't mean this matches up for others.

And pronouns? Welcome to language. Is it going to hurt you to call someone the pronouns they want? Can you remember someone's name? And their preferred drink in the pub? You can probably squeeze in if they use 'he', 'she' or 'they'... It's just another preferrence, it makes them feel happy, and it's not actually hard once you get used to it. Personally? I use she/her as it's easier for everyone as I have a very obvious big chest, but I couldn't give a damn if you use they/her/his with me. Other people will care.

Also, 'exclusive female health issues'? Transmen can have periods. Their gender is male. They're entitled to a view as well.

Oblomov19 · 09/07/2019 13:02

Biological sex is not gender. So I'm not sure I understand the problem.
Your sex is established at birth, right? That's what's in your medical records.

Rosemary46 · 09/07/2019 13:02

No it’s everyone’s decision to make. As we all pay for the NHS. And many of us work in it as well.

It’s not all about you.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 09/07/2019 13:02

My apolgies.. racism - yep, just like gender it is a social construct, changes between cultrues and within culures... is not immutable!

mummmy2017 · 09/07/2019 13:03

Curious what happens about pay rates...
Do trans female accept a drop in wages, too.

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