To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

why isn't this a choice for the individual concerned?

Well it would be my concern if me or someone I know received the 'wrong' bloods because some idiot would rather bullshit and lie about their pretend sex than admit their actual sex.

Because it means medical data is skewed which affects more than the individual.

In what way?

And how is it any different to a patient lying about their history? I could deny ever having smoked. If I then develop lung cancer that could skew data too. Drs might look at my reported history and attribute lung cancer to something else, when actually it was caused by smoking, it's just that I never declared it.

The truth is that medicine won't look at tiny statistical anomalies. Only trends will make any difference so the numbers of people that we could be talking about statistically won't make any difference.

If a trans man (biologically female) who has given birth gives blood pretending that they are an actual man and then that blood is given to a real man then that could have devastating consequences for the person who receives the blood. It could kill them.

Therefore it is extremely important that we measure biological sex in medical records and it doesn't just affect the person.

As somebody mentioned previously we know at least one baby has died because a trans man pretended he was not female.

www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiL9o2fjajjAhUI3OAKHTpfD44QzPwBegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuk%2Fhome-news%2Fblood-tranfusions-pregnant-women-kill-men-study-trali-journal-american-medical-association-a8006946.html&psig=AOvVaw0LhcbrEbeVnNTzwrShShXy&ust=1562770855887627

These arguments are all "me me me". What about thinking of others for a change? Actually putting others in danger as above, just for some validation?

And how is it any different to a patient lying about their history?

Because it could be prevented by just putting both sex and gender identity then no one needs to lie. Pretending they are the same thing helps no one.

Well it would be my concern if me or someone I know received the 'wrong' bloods because some idiot would rather bullshit and lie about their pretend sex than admit their actual sex.

This research seems to show no risk from blood transfusion based on sex

www.healio.com/hematology-oncology/hematology/news/online/%7B06e77bf5-1234-4a47-9c99-82f85f423bea%7D/donor-sex-prior-pregnancy-not-linked-to-mortality-risk-among-transfusion-recipients

And any risk only concerns donations from women who have previously been pregnant - any female donor could deny a prior pregnancy, it doesn't only apply to trans men.

These arguments are all "me me me". What about thinking of others for a change? Actually putting others in danger as above, just for some validation?

Because that previously held belief doesn't appear to be true.

Of course anyone can lie but why would you not design your service to have the best outcomes for all patients by asking for both sex and gender identity rather than leaving it as something that no one knows what is being asked and can cause problems?

Because a) systems should be designed to not have to rely on people telling the truth because people lie and b) the risk appears to be non existent anyway.

why would you not design your service to have the best outcomes for all patients by asking for both sex and gender identity

There will be some transgender people who will reply woman or man and will not give their biological sex as this not how they feel.

This bullshit needs to stop. No one is questioning a persons right to be who they want and call themselves what they want, and I will happily call anyone anything they want to be, but let's not pretend people can biologically become something else just because they so. It really doesn't work like that.

The world literally has gone mad.

How about, we have medical sex, and gender? 2 things? And stop conflating the 2, which EVERYONE is doing?

It's not unreasonable for a transwoman to say 'I'm female, please use female pronounds, however from a medical point of view, I have a prostate.' Any trans* person who denies they have certain organs is being stubborn and imo a bit silly. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated as their GENDER, but they should acknowledge the parts that maybe cause them dysphoria or that don't fit their gender.

And yes, a doctor refusing to use proper pronouns is rude, assuming someone is how exactly how they look (so a transwoman who passes perfectly gets 'she/her' from everyone, and then only gets 'he/him' from someone with priviledged personal information) It does NOT hurt to acknowledge her GENDER while treating her SEX.

The doctor should use the preferred pronouns as that is the compationate and caring thing to do, and treat the BODY as different to the MIND.

If I turned up to a Doctor using they/them, and requested they use those pronouns, I'd be fully open that I have a vagina, I've given birth, have periods, but I'd also expect my GENDER to be respected as WELL as my sex.

A transwoman saying she is female is not lying. She is stating her gender, her identity. The fact that medically this is taken as defining what her body has in it is the problem. And often forms don't have sex and gender. So the answer is: Have medical sex and gender BOTH on forms.

Ideally everyone would get chromosome tested at birth (you know, with those blood tests every baby gets) and then you'd have more idea of what your body might have... And yes, there are cases of men who are seen as medically sexed men having non-working ovaries, but because no one saw them, then they weren't classed as intersex. Sex isn't as binary as you'd think...

If a trans person is saying they're male, they can't be giving birth, not possible, then that's silly. But please don't tar all trans people with that brush. The ones I know acknowledge their biology, even as they present differently.

Stop assuming the idiots are the typical ones, please?

Because a) systems should be designed to not have to rely on people telling the truth because people lie and b) the risk appears to be non existent anyway.

Ok. Maybe then the NHS should just permanently keep the sex box fixed at that identified at birth and add a gender category for those who wish to be called a different pronoun. Then they don't need to rely on people telling the truth.

A transwoman saying she is female is not lying.

Yes, they are. Female is the class of mammal with the potential to produce eggs and bear young. It is a biological sex. A transwoman is never female and never will be, they are male.

You appear to be the one confusing things here, Xarra and writing huge posts with CAPS each time doesn't change that.

Also, biological sex is a myth. We define sex based on 'what baby has visually when it comes out'...

There's FAR more variations than just XX and XY, and you can be XY with apparently female traits, XX with apparently male traits (see: women with beards), and so on. Sex is NOT that simple.

Or do you check everyone's pants before you call them he/she? I bet you've called transmen 'he' and transwomen 'she' before, just because that's how they appear.

And yes, men may be typically more at risk of certain cancers than others, and people with a prostate should have an exam, but that is purely medical, biological information, that a) only a doctor should need to know and b) trans* people, if they're looking after their own health, should tell the doctor.

If a transwoman is silly enough to ignore the fact that she needs prostate exams, and should book one, that's her own fault. She should still be referred to as a she.

Bloody hell! I go to work and 2 posters start telling me I can't know I am female and that lots of things really arent't happening!

Both are utterly bbobbins!

Decomposing, how about you check out the nyraid "It never happens" threads berfore you state that the risks being discussed are non existent?

Xarra That is a really strong skill you have there. Sadly for you I, like many posters here, have fairly sophisticated reading abilities and such sophistry usually just gets laughed at or completely ignored. Try again, this time with some sense! How do I know I am a bloody woman, FFS!

There's FAR more variations than just XX and XY,

There are...

And you might find that people who are intersex, DSD, ask, repeatedly, that TRAs FUCK OFF bringing them and their wholly genetic, non choice based medical condition into this. Given you want us to repsoect other peoples feelings and wishes maybe you could practice what you preach and stop blathering such half baked codswallop!

Medical, criminal, sports and education should all be defined by biological sex.

^you are conflating gender with sex, Xarra* and I think you know it.

Sex is male/female, boy/girl, man/woman (woman meaning adult human female)

Gender is masculine/feminine.

And do try reading or buying a dictionary and find out what the word 'potential' means before frothing away. An infertile woman (female) is still a woman. A man is never a female or a woman.

But I'm now not going to engage with you any more, because either you are trolling or you are so dense it's not worth the effort.

@CuriousaboutSamphire - seriously, how do you know you're a woman? Without looking at your body? What do you feel you are?

I can look at my body all day, know it's a female one, and know that I don't identify as female. So I know I'm not female.

Just because you have a strong sense of female identity and your body and mind match, doesn't mean everyone else's does.

So is my feeling that I don't feel like I'm female invalid? I don't have dysphoria, but I would be happy in a male body as well.

And yes, far more variations. I'm aware of what you said, but some people seem obsessed that biologically what you are is either male or female, which isn't the case.

how about you check out the nyraid "It never happens" threads berfore you state that the risks being discussed are non existent?

What risks are you talking about?

The risk of blood transfusions - I've posted research that shows there is no risk.

Any other risks are to the individuals concerned. If they wish to accept those risks then that is entirely their business.

Er, gender is male/female. Sex is male/female. Sadly we haven't got 2 sets of words.

Personally I'm agender. I don't identify strongly as male or female. I'd be happy wherever my brain was, and I'm not bothered.

I'm honestly not trolling or being dense.

And a man is never a female - because a transwmoman is a woman in her identity. She also has traits that medicine defines as male.

(Most dictionaries definitions are outdated, language and understanding moves on, and sex is not gender. Not in current language, any more than gay is happy in most people's minds)

BTW:

Woman = Adult human with traits defined as female
Also
Woman = Gender identity of someone who feels they should have the traits defined as female, or identifies as female

Gay = Happy
Also
Gay = Male homosexual

Isn't language fun?

(Roughly, I don't speak for all trans people, and they may define things differently,. I'm just trying to point out how your definition of woman as exclusively 'Adult human female' is silly. Is doesn't say 'adult human female medically' or 'adult human who identifies as female' it could mean both...)