To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

If you could sci-fi switch bodies, would someone who was an AFAB woman be happy in a male body? Would she suddenly identify as male as she's now got a biologically male body?

As you keep saying; sex and gender are not the same.

This person would have male biology so should be accessing male sports, health care etc.

Their identity is irrelevant as, like you say, gender identity is completely different to biological sex.

Yanbu. There are only 2 sexes but unfortunately a lot of mental illnesses. We need to stop pandering to these people, the same way we don't pander to an anorexic who wants liposuction.

My head actually hurts reading last nights posts...

@jellyfrizz according to a lot of people here they know they're a woman as they have a women's anatomy, and that's the only reason. So logically, if they were put in a male body, they'd know they were male because they'd have male anatomy.

I know sex and gender are different. I know who.en who would say that the body doesn't matter, they'd still identify as female. But if you read many comments here, people know their gender based on their anatomy.

Transmen who can still be mistaken for women probably still feel safer in the ladies because other men will abuse them in the men's. No it's not right, but can you blame people for hiding from abusive men? I suspect they'd prefer to use the men's and not have to deny their own gender to be safe

With regards to women discussing their reproductive systems - in my opinion, be inclusive. And language around reproductive systems is more an issue for transmen I'd have thought...

There are only two sexes. Do you realise how offensive it is to women for men to claim they are women with female penises?

It’s akin to a white person claiming they’re black.

If TWAW then they would understand why women do not want men appropriating their spaces/sports etc. But they don’t, because they are not actual women.

2 sexes. Well, 2 defined by looking at body parts and grouped into 2 groups based on this. Most people fit into the 2 groups.

Many genders.

But single sex areas are segregated by sex, not gender. Body, not identity.

If I woke up in a man’s body I’d have a man’s body and would need health care etc suited to that body.

No sweehtheart... by looking at science. ALL people fit into 2 groups of chromosomes, XX and XY, some people have a disorder that means they present atypically, have the opposute sex organs, but they are still variation on XX and XY. Don't try arguing otherise, there are some VERY well educated posters here who work in the field! So no blather, admit it isn't your sphere of knowledge and LEARN!

And those poeple, as you have been reminded here a couple of times, have stated publicly that they RESENT having their medical condition coopted to try to justify trans anything.

Again, as you have stated you ant respect for the dignity of 'others' respect the publicy proclaimed wishes of individuals with DSD.

Or hand your head in shame, hypocrite!

But would you feel comfortable in a man's body? Or would you still want to be in women's spaces because your mind is a woman and you feel that's where you belong?

Or would you now be happy being called 'he/his', having a male name, and being treated as male because your body is?

Yes, you'd need your body to be treated as male, but you may well not feel right doing things that are classified male (like taking part in male sports) because to your mind you don't belong there. You want to compete against your own "group", the women.

I think that seperating sport by sex is silly anyway. Seperate it by hormones, things that are variable between sexes anyway (a ciswoman can have more testosterone and be stronger than a cisman!) Or something else, and get rid of defining it based on if you have a penis or a vagina.

Fine, XY, and XX, and genetic variences. Doesn't mean there's only 2 genders. Or that the gender has to match the chromosomes.

And there's also research that says it's not as simple as XY and XX and those aren't the only things that define a person's physical sex.

a ciswoman can have more testosterone and be stronger than a cisman!

Don't be silly. Women do not produce more testosterone than men as they don't have testes. And before you mention Caster Semenya, they are XY.

www.webmd.com/women/guide/normal-testosterone-and-estrogen-levels-in-women

Ciswomen produce testosterone. A ciswoman can produce high levels of it, and a cisman can produce low levels of it. Therefore a woman can have more testosterone than a man.

@Xarra want to answer the question I asked? On page 30 (I think, I @td you so it shouldn't be difficult to find).

Its not a hard question.

And Caster appears as a woman. Are you going to genetically test all elite athletes now to ensure they're XX karyotype and only XX people race against XX? I'm pretty sure there'll have been XY karyotype women racing who aren't as good as some XX women and therefore aren't suspected of being XY...

Oops. Page 31. There, I've done the work for you.

I don’t know why I’m rising to this, but xarra you must be aware that a) male advantage in sport is not just because of testosterone and b) even if it were, the fact there may be overlap between women with high testosterone and men with low testosterone doesn’t alter the fact that men as a class have higher testosterone.

But would you feel comfortable in a man's body?

Why not? It might be a bit weird at first, like if I suddenly woke up taller or really beautiful.

I can’t really see any downsides to it, I’d run faster, not have stupid periods and be treated better in general.

You keep trying to justify your stance by the Sci fi scenario if‘ what if you were taken from your body into a man’s ‘ argument..

But that doesn’t happen and that’s isn’t what’s is happening with trans. They aren’t originally a woman who has been transported into a man’s body - they are a man who is a man’s body. What ever dislocation, psychological discomfort or fantasy is going on his his man’s mind, its not being shock at being i the wrong body because he can’t possibly know ( not think or believe) because he isn’t a woman and can never be.

Or vice versa.

And if gender disphoria ( for that is what you are talking about) is no longer to be called a psychiatric condition then let us be honest call it deception or make believe. You can’t have it both ways.

a) I'm a trans-ally. A lot of trans* people won't put in the emotional labour to argue (and why should they?) An ally speaks up for people. If a trans person wants to speak up, correct me, etc, then I'll bow to their experience.

And no, you can't say but allies can't speak for people and at the same time not make an environment you're aggressively making hostile to trans people.

b) maybe you're letting your bad experience colour your feelings as much as I am my good experiences. You had a bad experience with an abuser. Who may have pretended to be a woman to abuse women. That doesn't mean the many many transpeople you've likely shared the loo with are the same.

Stop linking transwomen with an abuser.

I think that seperating sport by sex is silly anyway. Seperate it by hormones, things that are variable between sexes anyway (a ciswoman can have more testosterone and be stronger than a cisman!) Or something else, and get rid of defining it based on if you have a penis or a vagina.

I suspect that there probably is an element of "tribalism" in the objections. If I can throw a javelin further than a female then it is unfair for me to compete against her. As a male I have more strength and so on. Yet if someone like Fatima Whitbread enters and wipes the floor with both of us well that's all fine and dandy. Because a male isn't 'one of us' whereas FW is 'one of us'.

Which to my mind speaks a bit of "tribalism" with stuff about strength and whatnot being a bit of a smokescreen for just not wanting males there taking 'our' medals.

All that said, what else can they do other than go by generalisations? Splitting males and females because generally males are stronger is practical. Having some sort of strength test isn't really. And certainly not outside of professional sports. I mean, you can't really expect a school to test hormones or some such.

@jellyfrizz Fine. Your gender probably doesn't actually matter to you. It does to a transperson. Or several ciswomen I've spoken to who would feel wrong in a male body.

Maybe, the whole concept of gender is weird, and the majority of people don't have one, and a minority of people do. And in that minority, some are in matching sex bodies, some aren't.

Just because you don't feel gender, doesn't mean others don't.

@Xarra from the website you linked to.
“Relatively small quantities of testosterone are released into your bloodstream by the ovaries and adrenal glands. ”
Boys bodies are flooded by testosterone at puberty because the have testes that produces large quantities of testosterone (unlike women).
Please don’t play dumb on this. You’re talking to a forum full of women. We know basic biology. You just want us to submit to transgender ideology to be nice.

Just because you don't feel gender, doesn't mean others don't.

I completely accept that others do. I just don’t see what that gender identity has to do with areas that are segregated by sex.

And just because you have safe decent people in your life doesn't make all the negative characters go away. You are just dismissing every single negative experience anyone else has had with an airy wave of your hand in the smug "knowledge" that it will never happen to you.

Whoever said it earlier was right. "I'm all right Jack"

@Xarra please stop using the c word. It's offensive.
Your link to that site on hormones is laughable. Try finding something peer reviewed and evidence based and you might be found more credible.