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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

933 replies

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 09/07/2019 11:17

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

OP posts:
Eaudear · 10/07/2019 21:02

Oh and your annoying asterisking of 'trans' every time is messing up my quoting!

SlocombePooter · 10/07/2019 21:05

Xarra Well you see I'd have had more sympathy if I hadn't read about your belief in the female penis. To me that smacks of brainwashing and delusion.

HoustonBess · 10/07/2019 21:05

Your concern is so touching. I think trans people are best placed to say what represents a risk to them.

Xarra · 10/07/2019 21:07

I'm saying that any transwoman who identifies as female is a lot lower risk than a cismale.

I'm saying any cismale pretending to be trans is an arsehole and still high risk, and that's your problem. I accept it's a problem. I accept that gender is complicated and confusing. i don't know how to fix it. However I refuse to cause harm to trans people because of other people who do match their gender and sex and are 'real' men abusing their identity.

Do you believe transmen are real women and fully female? Even though they then get male privilage and similar? Do they stop being 'real' women?

You don't get to put other people in a minority at high risk of sexual abuse just to protect yourself when there's only a TINY minority of those arseholes.

Yes, the arseholes need to be stopped. Yes, we haven't got an answer for that yet.

SlocombePooter · 10/07/2019 21:10

Xarra, you rejected 4 spaces. So validation trumps safety?

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 21:11

AFAB women are pushing back on this:

Well apart from not listening to the actual reasons women have mentioned here and instead talking over them and telling them that what they've just said isn't real I'd like to pick up on this

a) because they percieve a far greater threat to their safety than actually exists from the genuine trans community.

How does a woman tell the difference between the 'genuine trans community' especially when the definition of the trans community has been massively widened (which other posters have pointed out and you've ignored)

And how does help women who have been on the receiving end of dodgy behaviour and have been gaslight and rendered much more powerless to understand what's happened to them because of the headfucking with language and being accused of being bigots if they dare to assert themselves and their personal boundaries?

Thats a real 'I'm alright Jack' attitude which comes from a massive amount of privilege.

Where this hits hardest and most often is amongst particularly vulnerable women such as abuse survivors, prisoners, those in the care system or lower incomes who have a greater reliance on certain services or those in intimate relationships or come from certain backgrounds who have rules which control them already in someway.

You can talk as if its nothing precisely because it's not your boundaries and your freedoms that are being compromised. It doesn't affect you to the same degree.

This isn't an equal game where all women (as in women not people who claim to be women) are the same and are exposed to an equally same risk.

It's rather belittling and dismissive to just cast it off like that. To put it politely.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 21:12

I'm saying that any transwoman who identifies as female is a lot lower risk than a cismale.

Is that what the prison statistics versus the general population statistics are saying?

PTW1234 · 10/07/2019 21:12

Sex should always be a marker and gender should be optional on any admin form etc, etc.

Biological sex matters. From dispensing the correct dosage of certain medicines to being able to accurately predict the growth/death rate of the population.

Everything else is socialisation and culture.

NewarkShark · 10/07/2019 21:13

I'm saying that any transwoman who identifies as female is a lot lower risk than a cismale

What’s your evidence for that? Don’t offending stats show trans women offend at the same rate as men?

I’m not saying let’s make trans women use the men’s toilets. I’m not calling trans women men, harassing them or abusing them or whatever else you’re alleging. I am saying that it isn’t as simple as women who are concerned about this are transphobic. This issue does affect women and their voice ought to be listened to.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 21:13

Do you believe transmen are real women and fully female? Even though they then get male privilage and similar?

Except they don't get male privilege. They still get pregnant for example.

Tyrotoxicity · 10/07/2019 21:16

I'm saying that identifying as a woman means they're a woman. So why would they pose a threat as a man?

Male pattern violence is a feature of males as a class. Males identifying as women are still part of the male reproductive class. There is no evidence that identifying as female reduces the likelihood of male pattern violence.

There is an alarming correlation between committing sex offences and identifying as a woman, as I have already explained. Further, impartial research in this area would be of great benefit, I think.

I'm saying that any transwoman who identifies as female is a lot lower risk than a cismale.

There is no evidence for this assertion.

There is a wealth of evidence that high-risk males are more likely than the general male population to cross-dress for sexual gratification and subsequently identify as women.

Transmen do not get male privilege, by the way.

Male privilege is incurred over the course of a lifetime spent in a biologically, 'medically' male body and a sexist, male-dominant society that imposes masculinity on males and femininity on females. It attaches to male bodies, not to gender identities.

It cannot attach to gender identities, because gender identities are not visible (unless a person wishes to express them outwardly). Male privilege is not an innate feature of male bodies. It is bestowed from without, not generated from within.

mummmy2017 · 10/07/2019 21:17

Really it comes down to this.
Genetically. Male
Cosmetically Female.

Tyrotoxicity · 10/07/2019 21:19

Yes, the arseholes need to be stopped. Yes, we haven't got an answer for that yet.

D'you know, I'm sure we used to. It's a big problem, which needs tackling holistically. One of the many answers to it we used to have was: single-sex facilities.

SlocombePooter · 10/07/2019 21:20

Tyro indeed!

Eaudear · 10/07/2019 21:25

I'm saying that any transwoman who identifies as female is a lot lower risk than a cismale.

Why do you think this? What are you basing this assertion on?

Also, what kind of 'transwoman' are you basing this on? Literally any male who says 'I feel female'?

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 21:36

Yes, the arseholes need to be stopped. Yes, we haven't got an answer for that yet.

D'you know, I'm sure we used to. It's a big problem, which needs tackling holistically. One of the many answers to it we used to have was: single-sex facilities

Boom

Why did we get single sex toilets in the first place and why are they still recommended for use in the developing world?

History is fascinating in what it teaches us.

Xarra · 10/07/2019 21:48

Again. A man walks into the ladies single SEX toilets. He appears as a man. You cannot tell otherwise from a look.

Says he's biologically female.

Please explain how you prove that he's entitled to be in there without a full body exam?

Say he is a transman. So he should be using that toilet by your logic.

But you have to out him, misgender him, and otherwise before you accept that he's a transman in the right toilet.

How does single sex work there?

Because they could be a man pretending to be a woman and ignoring the single sex thing. Or you have to believe them that they are what they say they are. Which you can't prove without them dropping their pants

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/07/2019 21:51

Oh please. Stop it! Such Pretzel Logic has got to hurt!

koshkat · 10/07/2019 21:51
  1. I'm saying that any transwoman who identifies as female is a lot lower risk than a cismale utter nonsense - in fact a far greater percentage of transwomen are in prison for sex offences than the general male prison population
  1. Getting very sick of the transwomen are at risk in the men's loos - there is no evidence for this assertion. It is just men trying to push in to women's safe spaces for validation. If ANY TW was assaulted in the loos you would never hear the last of it.
NewarkShark · 10/07/2019 21:52

So are you saying then that a trans man ought to be prevented from using the women’s facilities, even though they might not feel safe in the men’s? Presumably yes, if they’re a man and it’s a simple as that.

SlocombePooter · 10/07/2019 21:53

Well xarra how about he/she shows his/her MEDICAL CARD with their SEX entered on it? Or is that not good enough?

koshkat · 10/07/2019 21:54

This is all a red herring. We all managed fine with single sex facilities before all this crap appeared.

Xarra · 10/07/2019 21:54

Man enters ladies toilet. Says he's biologically female. Females can use the ladies toilet. Do you let him? Or do you insist for proof because he looks entirely male? Do trans people need papers to use these single sex toilets?

See: www.pride.com/transgender/2018/2/08/walgreens-embraces-all-gender-identity-bathrooms-after-cis-woman-was-denied-access

koshkat · 10/07/2019 21:55

This has never been an issue before - why are you pretending that it would be now?

Xarra · 10/07/2019 21:58

What is too masculine to use the ladies?

And "So are you saying then that a trans man ought to be prevented from using the women’s facilities, even though they might not feel safe in the men’s? Presumably yes, if they’re a man and it’s a simple as that."

Then a transwoman should be prevents from using the men's facilities and need to use the woman's. You can't have it both ways.

Either transmen are men & use the mens, and transwomen are women and use the women's, or they use their observed at birth sex. You can't say transmen and transwomen and OMAB people all must use the mens...

And why should he have to show a medical card?