To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

xarra

I understand why trans women are not safe in men’s toilets/changing rooms etc. But if you accept that male pattern violence is a real thing, what evidence is there that someone born and socialised male’s gender identity is a protective factor that reduces the risk of them acting that way?

I know the majority of trans women are not a threat, but nor are most men. You keep the good ones out to ensure the bad ones are kept out too.

And 4 seperate facilities is denying the identity. You're saying a transwoman can't use the 'female woman' facilities.

I'm highly amused how 'ciswoman' which means 'female woman' by your definition is objected to, but 'female woman' hasn't got the same problem.

Maybe because 'male woman' has the word 'male' in it, which everyone associates with gender and sex, and therefore that's denying that they're really a woman.

Xarra, I hope your daughter is never cornered in a women's toilets and forced to look at a ladycock, like I was.

Jam I am suspecting the daughter is a figment. Let's hope so, for her sake.

That's why I DON'T let my daughter unattended in ANY toilets?

Because a woman (trans or not) can abuse a kid. A man (trans or not) can abuse a kid.

So because I know any gender can be an abuser, I'm careful. That's common sense.

The shared female experience is this:

Every female human, throughout the world, navigates a world in which she is treated as inferior, as lesser, as there to serve. Every female human develops her mind, her understanding of self, in a sexist context which treats her as less than human.

Part of the context which every female human navigates is male humans, who are themselves conditioned by the context to dominate, exploit, and oppress females.

Every female human has the shared experience of being oppressed on the basis of her sex.

Of being told by her oppressors that this is not so, that it is simply the natural order, that it is inevitable, that it is right that she is oppressed so.

The details will vary. The nature of the mechanisms does not.

And no, I genuinely have had 2 c-sections, have a husband, and 2 very happy children that I don't allow to get in a position where they could be abused.

I'd be perfectly happy to leave them in the care of any of my trans* friends. Or non-trans friends. Male or female. Because I know them as people.

I find it really hard to be told I should be nice and accommodating to a group containing and protecting the person who frightened the life out of me. Why the hell should I? If trans women want access to female spaces, then they need to do some of the work cleaning house of the fakers, the fetishists and the fantasists. Dont tell me that trans women can't spot a faker amongst them.

I remember very clearly treating a 'gent' who had come in with abdominal pain, who refused to answer any questions about their F-->M transition.

I couldn't ask if they still had ovaries or a uterus? : "I am a man, why would I...." etc.

Impossible to do right for doing wrong.

Single sex FEMALE toilet...perfectly safe. The child on reaching puberty will be in danger in any mixed sex toilet, when mum is not around. Schools are starting to change to mixed sex at secondary..what a mistake.

I'd be perfectly happy to leave them in the care of any of my trans friends*

So would I. But that’s a separate issue to how gender identity affects the risk posed to women by male people as a class. On what basis are you saying that identifying as a woman removes this risk factor from male people?

... I'm OFAB (observed female...) I don't have any idea that I'm lesser, that I'm around to serve, that I'm conditioned to serve men.

I genuinely don't have that. I'm the equal to any man, I'll stand up for myself, and I won't take sexist shite.

So, am I not female as I don't agree I've had that experience? Or does my physiology overrule this?

@fixthebone - they are then putting themselves at risk and being an idiot. That is their own problem.

I don’t think women are inferior to men. I think society treats and views women as inferior to men.

And 4 seperate facilities is denying the identity. You're saying a transwoman can't use the 'female woman' facilities.

Yes, exactly. A transwoman - whom we have established and you have agreed repeatedly is of the male sex - can't use the facilities that are designated for the female sex. Gender identity is irrelevant.

One cannot simply identify as being a member of one reproductive class or the other. It is not a matter of identity. It is a matter of biology, that is replicated throughout the animal kingdom. Gender identity is as irrelevant to a human's sex as it is to a cat's.

Why do you believe biological, 'medical' sex - which is determined by the presence or absence of the SRY gene and assigned by the sperm at conception - is dictated by the mindset of the individual? It is patently absurd.

I'm saying that identifying as a woman means they're a woman. So why would they pose a threat as a man? Or more of a threat than a OFAB woman of the same hormone level, weight, and height?

Xarra, your daughter will go to a public loo on her own at some point, she won't be a kid forever. But I like your style. Fuck everyone else, MY kids are okay. Interesting attitude.

If you think your children are as much at risk in the female toilets as the male toilets then you have not the slightest understanding of safeguarding. More magical thinking.

Entitled male attitude.

So you don’t believe male pattern violence is a thing then?

I'm not saying medical sex is determined by mindset. I've repeatedly said gender is not sex and sex is not gender.

However, a transwoman is safer in a female toilet and poses very very little risk to other women.
A transman is safer (and gets far less hassle) in a male toilet.

The problem you all seem to have is with the people claiming to be trans when they're not to get access to vunerable people.

a) that's not actually what this discussion was about
and
b) I'm pretty sure trans* people object to arseholes doing that too & call it out where they can.

Those people are your problem. Not genuine trans* people. And you don't get to invalidate and deny and harrass a whole section of society because of another section who are criminals and lying and cheating.

98% of sexual offences are perpetrated by males. Men are a high risk class when it comes to crime, women are low risk.

Are you seriously saying that any male who reckons he 'feels female' (whatever the fuck that means) automatically comes out of the high risk category of male and into the female low risk, simply on his say so? And also, can you not see how that kind of thinking might be abused?

So, am I not female as I don't agree I've had that experience?

You do not consciously acknowledge your oppression. That is your right. It does not mean you are not a member of an oppressed class. It does not mean you have not been oppressed.

I forget who I'm paraphrasing, but the best way to enslave people isn't with shackles on their ankles and wrists. It's with shackles in the mind, that they'll normalise and pass on to their children.

I don't have any idea that I'm lesser, that I'm around to serve, that I'm conditioned to serve men.

You are serving men by championing a sexist ideology. The fact that you cannot see this is indicative of the success of the conditioning.

Oh! R Kelly!

That fucker really could fly he dreamed it, he can do it... R Kelly (apart from other things) is a fully fledged bird

Those people are your problem. Not genuine trans people. And you don't get to invalidate and deny and harrass a whole section of society because of another section who are criminals and lying and cheating.*

So how do we distinguish between the genuine trans people and the ones who might abuse this sort of ridiculous thinking in order to harm women?

My husband is a good man, I know he would never hurt anyone and I know he would be safe in a female toilet. Does that mean he should be allowed in? Should all 'good men' be allowed in women's spaces because they pose no threat?