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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

933 replies

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 09/07/2019 11:17

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

OP posts:
Tyrotoxicity · 10/07/2019 18:56

But women would moan about being female women because youre just women...

Am I not a woman then? I'm not moaning about the suggestion; it was MY suggestion, after all. I might believe "female woman" to be redundant (as a woman is by definition female), but in a context in which we need to be clear about both sex and gender identity I am happy to be referred to as a female woman if transwomen are happy to be referred to as male women.

I could explain what transmen are if you like, Xarra - had I been taught to interpret my experiences through the Transgender Story lens I would believe myself to be a man. I would be utterly convinced of the truth of it. I fit the typical profile and I experience gender dysphoria, and I can assure you it is not a fetish, in females. It is an escape, from the traumas inflicted by the Standard Sexism Story.

In some transwomen it is also an escape. For many, it is both. The fetish is real - or do you wish to invalidate me by denying the reality of my partner's self-confessed autogynephilia?

JBEM4 · 10/07/2019 18:58

@Xarra
*But women would moan about being female women because youre just women...

And unless you and everyone else never uses male in terms of gender identity again tha doesnt work*

You're "fighting" a losing battle.
Unless you are living as or with a trans person I've found a majority of people are unwilling to accept the reality of the situation (for trans people at least).

I'm grateful that I have first hand knowledge of the trans community and the genuine struggles they face both emotionally and physically.

I refuse to try to argue or reason with people who don't want to hear it.

I'll just sit here with my pretty multi coloured flag and be content with the fact that I'm living with an open and happy heart ❤️🏳️‍🌈

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 10/07/2019 18:59

Transwomen are women.

End of.

And personally? Let's just get rid of gender.

But then how would we know how special the trans women are? The won’t like that then.

truthisarevolutionaryact · 10/07/2019 19:00

When gay men start paying transwomen to be their surrogates and carry babies to term for them, then you can tell me that a transwoman is a woman. Until then let's stick to scientific and biological facts.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 10/07/2019 19:00

I'll just sit here with my pretty multi coloured flag and be content with the fact that I'm living with an open and happy heart but not for women huh?

Xarra · 10/07/2019 19:00

OK, weird example.

I have 2 cats. One is a bengal, one a moggy.

If someone asks me if I have pets, I say yes, I have cats.

I wouldn't say 'I have a bengal and a cat', I'd say 'I have a bengal and a moggy'.

So transmen and cismen are men (in the sense of a group name, they are 'cats') You'd not say a 'transman and man', in the same way as 'bengal and cat' because both are cats...

Xarra · 10/07/2019 19:01

@JBEM4 - please tell me I've at least argued correctly and at least decently, even if people here are refusing to understand?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 10/07/2019 19:02

That is funny. If one was a squirrel that was adopted as a baby (kit?) they you would say ‘a cat and a squirrel’ not ‘2 cats’. Because that’s what they are. You may say ‘a cat and a squirrel that thinks it’s a cat’.

Did you have your cats neutered?

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 19:06

Unless you are living as or with a trans person I've found a majority of people are unwilling to accept the reality of the situation (for trans people at least).

I think there at least two people with direct experience on this thread of a close trans person, who can still manage to define the word woman without going resorting to the 'because I say so' argument or the 'be nice' argument.

Trying to suggest you have a higher authority because your experience is somehow superior does not wash.

There are still reasons why clarity if language is hugely important that supercede the whole 'be nice, cos I say so' drivel.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 10/07/2019 19:07

‘Reality of the situation’ surely is that a person of one sex thinks that they are the other. That’s reality. What some suggest as truth is just fantasy.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 19:08

please tell me I've at least argued correctly and at least decently, even if people here are refusing to understand?

Translation: please reaffirm that I have trotted out the correct lines and adhered to the divine doctrine which we must obey and these non-believer heathens refuse to comply with.

Good fucking grief.

SlocombePooter · 10/07/2019 19:11

No voting button for this thread?

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 10/07/2019 19:12

Oooh I see what have a fan... and the MP in question was being an awful tit.

To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed
Xarra · 10/07/2019 19:13

No, I'm insecure and have anxiety and like knowing I'm correct. :)

JBEM4 · 10/07/2019 19:14

@lordproffekkothepenguinphd

You've lost me? Why not for women?

I have an open and happy heart for all - don't care if you're Arthur or Martha or whether you believe you should be an housebrick..... I'm a shining beacon of happiness and joy Grin

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/07/2019 19:15

You can make that at least 3, if you didn't include me Red. 30 years and counting...

If Xarra et al are interested I have posted quite recently about both of them.

JellyfishAndShells · 10/07/2019 19:15

They are all sitting there with their fingers in their ears saying’ la la la I’m not listening’ and it’s soooo NOT FAIR because I’ve told them and I’ve told them and STILL they don’t believe me even though I KNOW i’m right because I am allowed to KNOW things and they aren’t because they won’t accept that they aren’t .........

Or something.

End of.

Xarra · 10/07/2019 19:16

Or at least correct by someone with some experience in what I'm discussing. Rather than people who have read the headlines of tabloids and are panicking...

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 19:18

No, I'm insecure and have anxiety and like knowing I'm correct.

If you have to ask someone else if you are correct and need affirmation about it that's hardly critical thought applied by yourself is it?

JBEM4 · 10/07/2019 19:19

@RedToothBrush
Trying to suggest you have a higher authority because your experience is somehow superior does not wash.

I don't get how you got this impression?
My experience is far from superior given that the attitudes expressed here today are what we deal with daily.

It's quite sad really.

My knowledge is first hand therefore I feel confident to speak about it.

I apologise if this "doesn't wash" with you.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 19:20

You can make that at least 3, if you didn't include me Red.

Nope didn't include you....

Our experiences are invalid cos we are the wrong type of person and repeat the right thing.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 10/07/2019 19:20

But the whole argument is the pushing aside of women and girls in favour of faux females. The erosion of woman-only places. Male bodies belong allowed into places where male bodies do not belong.
Harassment of people who don’t use the correct pronoun.

I saw another twitter thread this week where a person was on a major power trip - trying to get some shop worked sacked because they were flustered at having to call a man ‘miss’. Their anime profile photo looked like a beautiful elfin like blonde but in real life they looked like the Fat Controller. The supermarket tweeted some mealy mouthed response and didn’t back up their staff. Because a bully swung into action.

You all happy and fluffy about that?

Tyrotoxicity · 10/07/2019 19:21

Unless you are living as or with a trans person I've found a majority of people are unwilling to accept the reality of the situation

I'm sure I've been speaking English, but perhaps not.

My experiences and the typical transman experiences are fundamentally the same. The early sexual traumas, the non-hetero orientation, the potential ASD, the inability to navigate the expectations of femininity, the escape into fanfiction, the obsession with slash fiction, the increasing disconnection between my body and my mind, the utter conviction that this social construction of woman, of femininity, was simply not me.

My partner's experiences and the precursory experiences of the typical late-transitioning male are fundamentally the same. The early association of sexual interest with women's underwear in mother's catalogue, the thrill of the taboo, the fondness for wearing lacy undergarments and imagining being dominated by a woman, the discovery of internet pornography involving forced feminisation, the creation of sexually submissive caricature of a woman as an alter ego, the identification with this creation.

The only difference between he and I, and a transwoman and transman couple, is that we do not believe in the Transgender Story, and so we do not perceive ourselves to be a trans couple. We perceive ourselves to be a man with a porn-fuelled fetish rooted in sexism and a woman who was been severely and repeatedly traumatised by the patriarchy.

Our experience is not irrelevant. We know what we are talking about.

And so does Red. By all the gods, Red knows what she's talking about on this one.

SlocombePooter · 10/07/2019 19:21

Well we all have anxiety. I worry what sort of a world my grandchildren will grow up in.

littlbrowndog · 10/07/2019 19:24

Why do you actually think women are pushing back on this

We can’t all be hysterical transphobes. Surely

Or read headlines.