To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

Pips Bunce is genderfluid. Not a transwomen. He/she uses both sets of pronouns.

So how come 'he/she' was able to take the place of a woman in that FT list then?

Gender is not sex.

Please can you define gender? In a way that can be used to shape policy and law in this country?

If gender is an oppressive tool but also something you can identify as, do girls and women who suffer sexual abuse because they are women and girls choose to be abused? Is that not the ultimate victim blaming? Could I have identified my way out of childhood abuse or the time I was raped as a teenager? When men have leered at or when at age 11 I was followed home from school by a man, could I have stopped it by saying, "I actually identify as gender fluid and today I am a man."? It makes no sense.

Transwomen don't decide to be trans because it's fun to oppress people more! That is utterly stupid. Transpeople are people like you, real, living, humans, they're not monsters! The trans people I know are all perfectly average people in perfectly average roles and lives. They're not trying to get people to submit to their lens. They're just wanting to be acknowledged as themselves!

And a transwomen should be gendered as a woman. People use 'trans-' to differentiate from women who's physical and gender identities match, which is useful in certain contexts. And because it is part of who they are.

But their gender is woman.

Transwomen is not a gender itself, it's a label for a woman who was not AFAB.

And "man woman"? That's just insulting, rude, and inappropriate.

How do I know what my gender identity is?

Genderfluid - gender is a spectrum. Some days they are more female, sometime more male. I suspect that was good enough. I don't make the lists?

Or my gender, as it seems the terms are interchangeable?

So why on earth would someone who identifies as a woman fight so hard to be gendered the same as an oppressed group unless they genuinely felt that they were female?

For lots of reasons.

1. Why be a male who is low in the social pecking order if they are feminine looking or have stereotypical female interests - it is a way to escape toxic masculinity
2. If you are a transwoman you don't become a woman even in a gendered sense. You are afforded a certain 'special status'. For example the current political climate means that you can behave in a certain way which would not be tolerated if you were male but is if you are a transwoman. A woman behaving in the same manner would not be given the same dispension.
3. The 'special status' gives power - you can be a transwoman when it suits and also a woman when it suits.
4. It allows you to exploit a loophole in the law in some way.

Or a combination of the above.

An example of a male who might wish to identify as female would be a prisoner seeking better privileges or access to women through exploiting a loophole in the law.

The idea that why on earth would someone who identifies as a woman fight so hard to be gendered the same as an oppressed group unless they genuinely felt that they were female? has two problems:

a) It assumes that all people who identity as trans do so in good faith. This is a nonsense as there are good and bad people across society regardless of how they identify.
b) it is an inherently sexist idea in the first place which encompases the toxic masculinity of 1) above. It reinforces the idea that men are not allowed to be feminine presenting or follow stereotypical gender roles. It serves to reinforce gender identity as an intrisically sexist behavior or belief without someone who supports it realising thats what they are doing.

There has been a move away from the idea that you can be a tom boy or a feminine boy to one where you MUST be trans if you are gender non-conforming and this is very much tied up with a rise in society of toxic masculinity particularly within a political sphere.

The statement is a very problematic one which is extremely blinkered, naive/innocent and simplistic. It often reflects a socialisation of women that they must be 'nice' rather than critically examine motivation and an unwitting acceptance of a lower status due to their sex, where they must be defined in relation to men rather than in their own right.

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Genderfluid - gender is a spectrum. Some days they are more female, sometime more male. I suspect that was good enough. I don't make the lists?

And you don't see any problem with a bloke who 'sometimes feels like a female' taking the place of a woman in that sort of list? When women have had to fight so hard just to be recognised in business?

What do you mean by 'feels like a female' by the way? And how can someone who has never been female, know what it is like to 'feel like a female'?

Well, if people call you she/her, and a woman, and you're comfortable with that, you're probably gender: woman?

If you prefer he/his and man, you might be gender: male?

I got told the brain-in-a-jar thing was ridiculous, but it's the only way I can think to explain it. Without your body, would you still feel female? (Imagination, it's a thing) or would you be happy to accept male pronouns or they/them once you no longer had a meat-sack? Women I've spoken to say that they can't imagine not being a woman, even without a body, that core belief and identity is "woman". Personally I'd not give a damn. Many people would.

And many people can't comprehend meat-sack and mind being different because theirs aren't, so there's no disconnect, so it feels like they're the same thing for them...

They're just wanting to be acknowledged as themselves!

Very few people would have a problem if this were the case. I'm very happy to accept trans people as trans people, I think most people are.

It's when people want to be acknowledged as the opposite sex that it causes a problem in areas where biology matters (in much of life biology doesn't matter but sometimes it really does).

Before you continue Xarra I would like you to define the following, for the purposes of clarity in the discussion:

Woman
Transwoman
Gender

What is trans* Xarra ? Not the whole caboodle of ‘ I feel like this -ness ‘ but the flirty little asterisk after the s.

Genuine question .

Transwomen don't decide to be trans because it's fun to oppress people more! That is utterly stupid. Transpeople are people like you, real, living, humans, they're not monsters! The trans people I know are all perfectly average people in perfectly average roles and lives. They're not trying to get people to submit to their lens. They're just wanting to be acknowledged as themselves!

You can confuse personality with identity status.

I don't think that its always a conscious or deliberate action - there are plenty of trans people who are in effect victims of gender stereotyping and are unwittingly acting out that out without being aware of how their identity can undermine and remove power from others to assert theirs. It can be an acting out of internalised homophobia for example. Or the result of comorbid issues relating to social interaction (maybe a history of abuse or potentially autism).

The subject is deeply complex and the desire to oversimplify it into a structure where merely being trans places you at the bottom of list of power and privilege is nonsense. You can be a privileged middle class trans person compared to a woman who has grown up in care following an abusive childhood for example.

The whole 'most oppressed' shit, is just that. Shit.

Without your body, would you still feel female?

Without my body, I would be dead. We are talking facts, policy, law and women's rights here, so 'imagination' doesn't come into it I'm afraid.

You're missing the fact that trans* people do not go through it all just to oppress other people or get higher status.... Or transmen wouldn't transition, because, oh, they're at the bottom of the male pecking order now?

Trans people are not trans because they have some mass plot and plan to oppress AFAB women and take over from them. Really. They just want to be themselves.

And why shouldn't transwomen succeed?

I understand the point but really don't like the term meat sack being used to describe my body. I think by gender you mean personality. I'd find it strange to be called a man because I'm obviously not one. In my language "man" is the word used to describe a person with male sex characteristics. I do not have those. I'd find it equally strange if I was called a "table" because I am not a table. If I was a mind with no body and no sexual characteristics I think the words man/woman/he/she would be redundant.

And many people can't comprehend meat-sack and mind being different because theirs aren't, so there's no disconnect, so it feels like they're the same thing for them...

Feeling like you are in the wrong body, and actually being in the wrong body, are two entirely different things.

Or would you say that a 6 stone person suffering from anorexia is actually fat?

There is zero evidence to suggest that 'the wrong brain' can end up in a particular body. The brain is part of the body, whatever its sex is.

If you prefer he/his and man, you might be gender: male?

Or if you prefer Her Majesty you might be queengender.

Woman: person who identifies as a woman.
Transwomen: person who identifies as a woman, not AFAB.
Gender: the deeply held personal identity of who someone is in gender terms. Usually male/female.

And I can't define how you feel you're female or male. You just know in your heart that's what you are.

And gender is a philosophical concept. I'm afraid it's not something you can see, unlike biology.

And why shouldn't transwomen succeed?

I'm not saying they shouldn't succeed. I'm saying they are not entitled to things that are reserved for women, things that women in their female bodies, have fought hard for.

What does it mean to identify as a woman? How do I know if I do?

But a transwomen finds it strange to be called a man, because their self image, their self identity, is female. They're not a man in the same way you're not a table and find it weird to be called one?

And, as I said, it's hard to imagine your sex and your gender being different when for you they're one and the same, treated one and the same, and you don't have that disconnect.

Woman: person who identifies as a woman.

What anyone? So does that apply for race as well as sex? Can I, as a white woman, identify as black? If not, why not?

Transwomen: person who identifies as a woman, not AFAB.

So any person? So any man can say 'I identify as a woman' and have access to the legal rights and protections of women? And you see no problem with that? You don't think that will ever be abused?

Gender: the deeply held personal identity of who someone is in gender terms.

You can't use the word you are defining in the definition. That is a circular definition and makes no sense.

And gender is a philosophical concept. I'm afraid it's not something you can see, unlike biology.

So if it's philosophical, then why are people being made to go along with it? Isn't that like forcing someone to believe in a particualr religion? I thought philosophy was about free thinking and different ideas? I don't believe in 'gender' as a solid thing which all humans inherently have.