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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

933 replies

MenstruatorExtraordinaire · 09/07/2019 11:17

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

OP posts:
Jamsangwich · 10/07/2019 15:42

You can't hide bones. Forensic scientists can tell the sex of an adult person, even from just bones. It's something to do with development once the sex hormones kick in, afaik. The female pelvis widens. Male shoulders widen. Male necks are often thicker (male bones are thicker, in general, I believe). Males skulls are often identified by the supraorbital ridge, which is presumably there because it makes the skull tougher, more resistant to impact damage.

Which is probably why, in 2000 years or so, women will have developed the supraorbital ridge through evolution, from banging our heads repeatedly against any solid surface whilst all this shit goes on.

Xarra · 10/07/2019 15:43

@jellyfrizz I think BOTH should be declared for medical uses. Because a lot of mix-up comes because there is one option on the form.

If the only option is Sex - a transman can put down male and cause problems if they have some anatomy defined as female. Or female and feel like they're entirely invalidated as an identity and they're denying who they are.

If the only option is Gender - the same problem occurs.

Sport should be done on basis other than 'do you have a penis or a vagina' because I don't think those organs take part in the activity anyway. It's only split male/female biology because when sport started millennia ago, it was the most obvious way to do it and hormones and phyisology wasn't understood (victorian 'humors' anyone?)

Prisons - an AFAB and AMAB woman should be in a woman's prison. An AMAB and AMAB man should be in a man's one. Anyone who is pretending to be trans* to get round this is wrong and fraudulant, and would need to prove their gender anyway - and stick to it. Changing a certificate to 'become' female, then lumbers them with being female in ALL walks of life for the rest of their life, financially treated as a woman, etc... And given women are treated as lesser, do you really think an AMAB person who fully believes they're a man, will put up with the privilege loss for life just to get their rocks off in a prison?

2 boxes solves the whole issue.

DixieFlatline · 10/07/2019 15:45

You know how men are told that as they don't have a uterus they get no say in pregnancy or childbirth? I think the same applies here.

How about 'unless you're actually a woman (that is, a female adult human) you shouldn't demand that people treat or refer to you as one (including the pronouns used for female adult humans), and you don't get to go into spaces traditionally reserved for women'. You're cool with that, right?

BouquetNotBucket · 10/07/2019 15:45

Reverend is a way of referring to someone. Identifying them. Same as a pronoun

So if I identified as the Queen you’d use “your majesty”? You’d actually type emails etc using it?

jellyfrizz · 10/07/2019 15:49

It's only split male/female biology because when sport started millennia ago, it was the most obvious way to do it and hormones and phyisology wasn't understood (victorian 'humors' anyone?)

Errrr no. Women just weren't allowed to compete mostly. Take the Boston Marathon for example : www.telegraph.co.uk/athletics/2018/04/21/marathon-trailblazerkathrine-switzer-just-20-year-old-kid-wanted/

DecomposingComposers · 10/07/2019 15:50

How about 'unless you're actually a woman (that is, a female adult human) you shouldn't demand that people treat or refer to you as one (including the pronouns used for female adult humans), and you don't get to go into spaces traditionally reserved for women'. You're cool with that, right?

How does that apply to this thread?

This thread specifically asks about transgender people being correctly sexed for medical reasons - your post is widening it out to discuss the whole trans debate.

This isn't what this thread is about. I was answering the OPs question.

Xarra · 10/07/2019 15:51

Identity based on fact.

Please show all physical proof of that fact. Where is the physical proof that they believe in Jesus? Not their actions - you can be a devout Christian without doing anything outwardly - but the physical halo of light that shines out and proves that that belief is a fact?

A transperson's identity is based on a deeply held belief that they are that identity. They do actions like present as that identity, most (not all) use pronouns associated with that identity.

A Christian also does actions that show us that they have their belief. They read the bible. They go to church.

A deeply held personal belief that makes up someone's core identity doesn't have to have outward signs for it to exist.

Xarra · 10/07/2019 15:54

@BouquetNotBucket No. Because you're not the Queen. You can't identify as the Queen. That's a hereditary title that 1 person hold. However, if you told me you were honestly a reverend and you preferred the title reverend, I'd not call you Ms, I'd call you reverend.

BouquetNotBucket · 10/07/2019 15:57

Please show all physical proof of that fact. Where is the physical proof that they believe in Jesus? Not their actions - you can be a devout Christian without doing anything outwardly - but the physical halo of light that shines out and proves that that belief is a fact?

Halo of light? Confused

We/they know they are Christian because it is defined as a person who follows and believes in Jesus.

Define what a female gender is.

And would you refer to me as ‘your majesty’ if I identified as the queen?

BouquetNotBucket · 10/07/2019 15:59

They do actions like present as that identity

What does presenting as f/m mean? Clothes? What do these clothes look like? Hair? What?

Tyrotoxicity · 10/07/2019 16:00

Feminine isn't a gender. It's a type of behaviour and way of acting.

Pissing myself laughing over here.

The feminine gender is a type of behaviour and way of acting that is IMPOSED ON FEMALES and internalised by females to greater or lesser degrees, with the ultimate aim of maintaining and reinforcing male dominance.

If you've internalised the feminine gender well enough to honestly believe that it's what defines us as female - congratulations! You are unthinkingly sexist!

littlbrowndog · 10/07/2019 16:02

What’s an amab person or an afab person ?

BouquetNotBucket · 10/07/2019 16:03

No. Because you're not the Queen. You can't identify as the Queen. That's a hereditary title that 1 person hold

Hereditary? How do you define that? The royals are a mixed bunch, blood line not very straight. Sometimes you simply became king because you killed the other so identified yourself as King, nothing to do with hereditary crap really.

jellyfrizz · 10/07/2019 16:04

A deeply held personal belief that makes up someone's core identity doesn't have to have outward signs for it to exist.

No. Because you're not the Queen. You can't identify as the Queen. You can't identify as the Queen.

Queen is often used as a greeting or term or affection. Yaas Queen!

Because the word has two meanings someone can be the Queen as an identity but when it comes to their biology not actually have been born into the Royal Family.

Out of respect for their identity we should use Your Majesty, after all it's not harming anyone is it. Why can't you just be nice?

Datun · 10/07/2019 16:06

I wince because I don't identify as male or female. The words don't describe my identity. If a transwoman is called a man, then she will wince because that word doesn't fit her mental image of herself. She's a woman.

And there you go again. Tossing around words like man and woman which you can't define.

A transperson's identity is based on a deeply held belief that they are that identity.

Correct.

I don't share their belief. And as their belief conflicts with material reality that is detrimental to women, I profoundly disagree with it.

jellyfrizz · 10/07/2019 16:11

Anyone who is pretending to be trans to get round this is wrong and fraudulant, and would need to prove their gender anyway - and stick to it.*

How do you prove your gender?

Datun · 10/07/2019 16:11

littledog

Amab and afab mean assigned male at birth and assigned female at birth.

It's more appropriation from the intersex community because they may have been misidentified as they had a medical condition.

They're not happy with the appropriation.

It's a way of pretending that observing someone's correct anatomical sex when they are born, is an error on the part of the doctors.

RedToothBrush · 10/07/2019 16:12

A mixture of gullibility and cynicism had been an outstanding characteristic of mob mentality before it became an everyday phenomenon of masses. In an ever-changing, incomprehensible, world the masses had reached the point where they would, at the same time, believe everything and nothing, think that everything is possible and that nothing was true. The mixture in itself was remarkable enough, because it spelled the end of the illusion that gullibility was a weakness of unsuspecting primitive souls and cynism the vice of superior and refined minds. Mass propaganda discovered that its audience was ready at all times to believe the worst, no matter how absurd, and did not particularly object to being deceived because it held every statement to be a lie anyhow. The totalitarian mass leaders based their propaganda on the correct psychological assumption that, under such conditions, one could make people believe the most fantastic statements one day, and trust if the next day they were given irrefutable proof of their falsehood, they would take refuge in cynicism; instead of deserting the leaders who had lied to them, they would protest that they had known all along the statement was a lie and would admire the leaders for their superior tactical cleverness.

And

The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the convinced Communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (i.e., the reality of experience) and the distinction between true and false (i.e., the standards of thought) no longer exist.

And

[H]e was genuinely incapable of uttering a single sentence that was not a cliché.[…] Eichmann, despite his rather bad memory, repeated word for word the same stock phrases and self-invented clichés (when he did succeed in constructing a sentence of his own, he repeated it until it became a cliché) each time he referred to an incident or event of importance to him.[…] The longer one listened to him, the more obvious it became that his inability to speak was closely connected with an inability to think, namely to think from the standpoint of somebody else. No communication was possible with him, not because he lied but because he was surrounded by the most reliable of all safeguards against the words and the presence of others, and hence against reality as such.

And

For the trouble with lying and decieving is that their efficiency depends entirely upon a clear notion of the truth that the liar and deceiver wishes to hide. In this sense, truth, even if it does not prevail in public, possesses an ineradicable primacy over all falsehoods.

And

The moment we no longer have a free press, anything can happen. What makes it possible for a totalitarian or any other dictatorship to rule is that people are not informed; how can you have an opinion if you are not informed? If everybody always lies to you, the consequence is not that you believe the lies, but rather that nobody believes anything any longer. This is because lies, by their very nature, have to be changed, and a lying government has constantly to rewrite its own history. On the receiving end you get not only one lie — a lie which you could go on for the rest of your days — but you get a great number of lies, depending on how the political wind blows. And a people that no longer can believe anything cannot make up its mind. It is deprived not only of its capacity to act but also of its capacity to think and to judge. And with such a people you can then do what you please.

Hannah Arendt taught that when language is twisted so that black is now white and white is now black, all meaning is lost.

A society that removes the power of the truth from the people can do anything to the people without being challenged.

The use of pronouns is a method to control people and remove the power of being able to speak the truth.

If you can not define woman because what you understand to be woman has become fuzzy or you are afraid of identifying whether someone is a woman you remove the power to express what problems a woman might uniquely face.

Thus pronouns are important as they blur the lines of communication and they allow errors to be possible and for abuses of power against women to take place without being seen as clearly as they should be.

Healthcare relies on understanding the sex of someone to give good and appropriate care. In a busy hospital, a doctor or nurse should check notes every time but in reality this doesn't always happen. A patient always referred to by certain pronouns might slip through the net.

Thus it is important to a doctor to maintain pronouns based on sex for the patients safety and the doctors own protection from error or the errors of others.

It helps to preserve the integrity of data so that for example you know that the blood of a male isn't included in a clinical study which is only for women's related issues.

Pronouns are not neutral words which are only about being polite. They are a way of identifying sex and conveying other meaning to others.

A male using a female pronoun is exercising power over women by demonstrating that women can not define themselves on the basis of sex. This leaves women with less power.

The desire for a woman to preserve her dignity and right to privacy for example on a ward from the male gaze is rendered invisible. She comes second to the rights of the person identifying as female and using female pronouns.

It removes the power of a woman to consent to with full information. It has the potential to leave vulnerable women with a history of abuse of some description in situations where they feel uncomfortable and find it difficult to challenge for whatever reason.

There are many reasons why pronouns should not be seen in the context of merely a way of being polite. The use of pronouns is much more than that we should understand that pronouns convey a huge amount more as a communication tool - they are identifiers and markers of power.

BouquetNotBucket · 10/07/2019 16:14

A transperson's identity is based on a deeply held belief that they are that identity

How do they know they are if they cannot define that identity?
Are you meaning that gender is a faith? that it is not based on fact or reason, just like religion isn’t?

Datun · 10/07/2019 16:16

Anyone who is pretending to be trans to get round this is wrong and fraudulant, and would need to prove their gender anyway - and stick to it.

Haha! How??

Meet Danielle Muscado - woman.

And if you don't agree. you can suck Danielle's dick, as they memorably said on international woman's day.

To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed
Xarra · 10/07/2019 16:17

You can deeply believe that you're a queen. Fair enough. If you want to go into absurdity with it.

You can't believe you're THE Queen of England.

You can request people use 'her majesty' when they refer to you. But I think you'd be a minority of one thinking 'queen' is a gender. I believe the Queen's pronouns are still 'she' and 'her'. 'Her majesty' isn't a title.

You're being ridiculous. You don't get sensible people going 'I identify as a queen, please, I need the state to give me a palace and money and a crown or I'll get dysphoria!'

truthisarevolutionaryact · 10/07/2019 16:18

Thank you RedtoothBrush for reminding us of the importance of truth.

There was an excellent post way back from threadbaretoe that I think is well worth repeating:

People are meaning makers. It is unsettling, frustrating and distressing when things don't make sense or undermine an individual's sense of the world. There are lots of narratives surrounding trans issues that wittingly or unwittingly undermine basic premises upon which logical and coherent meaning making is based. The people who post about trans issues are (typically) not willing or able to reject (or pretend to reject) the foundations upon which their biology, physical health, sexuality is understood/based. Like trans people's, non trans people's identities are fundamental to their well being and dignity and when trans people demand changes to systems to accommodate their identities this is often without regard, or with known disregard, for the impact on the dignity and identity of others. We need to find solutions that do not undermine any given group, we mustn't throw people under the bus!
I do not have a gender identity. Both personally and politically I want to be thought of as a human and to have human expectations placed upon me (not gendered ones) that are underpinned by mutually dignity and respect. Where sex is relevant to a given situation (e.g health and sexuality) I want my sex to be recognised - I am female

.

littlbrowndog · 10/07/2019 16:20

Thanks datun

That is bollocks tbh. The midwife doesn’t randomly assign sex to a baby
Like oh we need more boys. Let’s give this baby the boy sex. That would be bonkers

DixieFlatline · 10/07/2019 16:20

You don't get sensible people going 'I identify as a queen, please, I need the state to give me a palace and money and a crown or I'll get dysphoria!'

Why would dysphoria have to be involved?

littlbrowndog · 10/07/2019 16:21

And I know that intersex people hate been used in trans debates. They have said this often