To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

I'd like you to show me the converse. Show me the women who are compelling the men.

People will lie to themselves all the time

She was asking for it
He pushed me away
She made me do it

You don't address people as "he" or "she". It's a third person pronoun.

It's a piece of information about a third party that gives your conversation partner something they need to know.
If someone is waiting in the GP surgery and the receptionist says "Jay Bloggs has complained of acute bleeding from her genitals, please see her first" the GP needs a correct pronoun whether it offends the patient or not.

Likewise if I am at the swimming pool and wish to complain, "I have told this person he can't come in the ladies" is informative.

Sometimes it doesn't matter for information but you don't address someone using a third person pronoun.

It definitely matters.

This man is insisting on using the women's changing room is a completely different scenario to this woman is insisting on using the women's changing room.

You speak as if there’s some sort of trans epidemic going on when the amount of people who identify as trans is tiny, and those who are deviants is even smaller.

And despite denying it, as a previous poster has said, you ARE presenting oddities as the norm.

And all this stuff about not respecting people’s preferred pronouns is just clutching at straws. Seriously, what difference does it make to you?

In the example of ""Jay Bloggs has complained of acute bleeding from her genitals, please see her first" I'd expect '"Jay Bloggs has complained of acute bleeding from their genitals, please see them first", or their preferred pronouns. The doctor doesn't need to know if they are male or female, just that they have acute bleeding and are a priority.

In the example of a man entering the changing room, fine, but if they are a transwoman they should be able to use the ladies one, and in most cases would, I believe, prefer a cubicle in the female one, than have men around them as they're female. The reverse is true for transmen in the men's, but of course that isn't an issue that a 'vulnerable woman' could be surrounded by dangerous men who could abuse 'her'...

You just aren't listening Xarra You are being incredibly transphobic, according to TRAs, Stonewall etc etc.

Transwomen (because transmen have been far less vocal) do not want ANY note of their dead name/self/gender/sex. To compel them to do so is literal violence, you are killing transwomen - again not my hyperbole but common cant trotted out across all media channels.

It is TRAs that compel the lie.

As has been said afew times (by me at least twice now) you are missing the TRA point, the reason all of this is being dscussed. We can record sex and gender. Most GC women have been saying that for about a decade. It isn't this side of the debate that disagrees! It is TRAs that demand that there is no difference between sex and gender, that gender is THE correct term. Again to say otherwise is to deny their existence, is literal vilence is killing trasnwomen (again transmen have been very quiet on that)

You need a broader view of this, as currently you are pissing into the wind...

If a female of child-bearing age presents with abdominal pain, one of the first things that will be done is a pregnancy test, even if the female denies possibility of pregnancy. If a female of child-bearing age requires an x-ray, they will be required to have a pregnancy test, or to sign a form stating that they had a period within the last x weeks and do not know themselves to be pregnant.

If a male presents with those symptoms, they will not be asked about pregnancy and a pregnancy test will not be done. Because men do not bear children.

No relabeling or altering of pronouns can change that biology.

If you can remember Bob's preferred drink in a pub, and order them diet rather than full fat (from a 3rd person), because that's what they prefer, you can remember that Chrissie prefers to be referred to as 'she' or 'her' when talking to a third person.

It's honestly no more of a hardship, it makes Chrissie as happy as Bob is getting his diet drink, and it is a nice thing to do.

I really CANNOT make my mind up about this.

misses point of thread..............

You're taking the vocal TRA opinion as the definite trans opinion of all trans people.

In the majority of cases, transwomen should be able to put female and not mention their deadname/etc. However I think that most reasonable trans* people I know realise that their doctor needs their medical history and that includes biology. So it's relevant and should be disclosed. Most reasonable people can see this.

So, yes, there shouldn't be any mention of their previous pronouns/name anywhere - except where it is directly relevant to treatment (i.e. at a doctor's), where biology is directly relevant.

It's not relevant pretty much anywhere else & shouldn't be recorded.

@Lougle I don't believe most transmen who are having vaginal sex would sensibly deny they have a vagina and could get pregnant.

If they presented with those symptoms and were asked for their gender (male) and assigned at birth sex (female) then they would be looked at as someone who could have female issues, like being pregnant, and be referred to as 'he'.

Yes, it's confusing, yes, it sends up with sentences like 'Can you check the contactions of the man in bed 10?' or 'He's the pregnant one', but language evolves, and as our understanding of gender and sex and sexuality evolves, it has to.

I don’t think it needs to evolve. 200000 years of evolution and I think we have sex sussed.

Well, as I am tired if juggling jelly with you, and have finished work for the night, I will leave you to your beliefs, to continue ignoring what really has been said, what really is happening in the wider world.

Good night all...

Respectfully, I disagree with your position.

@Leontine I think that's the whole point and why people are getting worried. Because there does seem to be a trans epidemic. I've just seen a news article saying that now 1 in 50 prisoners is transgender and that goes down to 1 in 10 prisoners from the Travelling community for some reason. All of them are men who are claiming to identify as women and want to have access to women's prisons rather than being in the men's prisons. So that's a huge number isn't it? And that doesn't even count the male prisoners who have gender recognition certificates and are therefore counted as women anyway.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at the take the brain out and stick it somewhere else what would you be argument. Fucking hell. Has someone had a kool-aid IV running?

And despite denying it, as a previous poster has said, you ARE presenting oddities as the norm.

Yeah, I mean what's a few women being assaulted in prison or a changing room, or feeling uncomfortable in a women's refuge, or losing their place in their sport, if it means that males get to feel better about themselves?

Seriously, what difference does it make to you?

Well, apart from the fact that it's not true and therefore no one is under any obligation...

'He was in the female changing rooms (with his penis out)'.

'She was in the female changing rooms (with her penis out)'.

@LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD So science and understanding can't evolve? What about the Indian 3rd legal gender? Is that wrong? Is that invalid and those people should immediately only be male or female?

We haven't got sex sussed. We're still discovering how sex works. We used to define it just from 'has the baby got a penis or not'? We can now do further testing. We've come so far in physical sex knowledge & we're still learning.

Gender - see the two-spirited people in Native America, the 3rd gender in India, many others, which have been around for centuries. Just because in this culture we don't have it, that means they are wrong? Maybe we're wrong. Psychology is a relatively new field, and exploring gender identity is still a new research area in terms of all those years you mention.

So no, we haven't got it cracked. It's an evolving science. We're still learning new things about physics, and maths you'd have thought those definite, immutable things would've been pinned down by now.

And we're more clear on sex than gender. Which are different.

No, no one is under any obligation to use the correct pronouns. However, it's rude not to, disrespectful, and just not kind.

I don't understand why anyone would be rude, disrespectful and mean, just because someone says they want to be referred to a certain way.

I have a friend who's changed her name (she was assigned female at birth) due to personal reasons. I remember to refer to her as 'Tina' rather than 'Sarah' because that's what she's asked me to call her. It's no problem for me. It's what she wants. Should I insist on calling her 'Sarah' as that's what she was called at birth? It's not true she's REALLY called 'Tina' after all...

And yes, 'she was in the female changing rooms (with her penis out)' or 'they were in the female changing rooms (with their penis out)' is correct...

Assuming you know them well enough to know that they use the pronouns 'she', it'd not be wrong to think that someone you don't know, waving their penis around, is male, as I doubt you've asked... So until you know otherwise I'd not blame you for using 'he'...

I really doubt many transwomen would be openly displaying their penis in a female changing room - 1) they'd be well aware of the reaction it'd get and not want to put themselves in that situation and 2) they probably wouldn't want it acknowledged it was there.

Unless they're someone who is trying to provoke controversy. I'm hoping that transwomen who believe that they have a fully female body (penis and all) and should be fully accepted as female, have the common sense to not wave their penis around where it will cause issues. But that would be a small (and vocal) minority within a minority.

I see no evolutionary advantage to denying one's biological sex.

I’m loving the cognitive dissonance between earnestly identifying as agender, yet arguing passionately in favour of the (ever increasing) different forms of gender identity.

It’s easy to be clearer on sex than gender because gender is a made up social construct.