To think that for medical reasons it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed

[MenstruatorExtraordinaire]

Saw this doctor on This Morning being called a bigot by Piers Morgan

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7227479/Doctor-sues-government-sacked-trans-views.html

Religious views aside, I think he raises an important point.

I've seen several cases recently where transgender people have been incorrectly identified by medical staff leading to their death/serious injury or the death of a baby.

Surely the solution is to retain their correct sex on medical records, birth certificate etc with a TG marker.

So AIBU to think that for medical reasons alone it is important that transgender people are correctly sexed?

(where 'fully accepted as female' means 'including organs that are typically seen as male being accepted as female')

I can get my head round it. Just. But in a medical situation, the doctor doesn't care what gender your penis is, just if you have (or in some cases, had) one.

True, the doctor won't give a shit about gender.

Yes - I'm agender. However, that doesn't mean other people are. Why shouldn't I argue for a woman to be able to identify as a woman, or a man as a man? Trans or otherwise?

Being agender means I don't feel I have a gender. I'd like to put 'other' on a form for gender. It doesn't mean I don't recognise other people do have a strong male/female/other gender identity.

The doctor shouldn't give a shit about gender when treating your condition. They should give a shit about it when treating you as a person.

Treating a transwoman for prostrate cancer? Your gender is irrelevant in the treatment, but it isn't in how you're referred to and referenced.

@SlocombePooter I suppose you see no evolutionary advantage to being gay either? (there are some!)

Trans* people have been around for millenia (and in some cultures recognised, in some, like our current one, marginalised). There may well be an advantage that we haven't discovered yet (or I've not seen!)

Not everything needs a evolutionary advantage to be the case.

xarra gender is a made-up social construct. Pick it apart and it’s all based on reductive social stereotypes. Many people reject gender based stereotypes and just get on with life as either a woman or man based on biology. Funnily enough, transwomen seem to perpetuate these gender myths more than anyone else. “I knew I was a girl because I liked twirling and pink and dolls”.

Many GC feminists agree about the forms on that basis and believe that they should be either male, or female. Which brings us back full circle to the OP of course.

That is, the forms should be male and female based on sex.

To xarra of course, who is fighting valiantly.

Honestly until the first transitioned person dies of a preventable gender specific disease (ie breast cancer in a transitioned man, or prostate cancer in a transitioned woman) because they didn’t allow the NHS to correctly label their birth sex, the LGBT+ community will not take this seriously. This is particularly important when you consider that the next phase in medicine is the development of genetic / gender based drugs.

*No, no one is under any obligation to use the correct pronouns. However, it's rude not to, disrespectful, and just not kind.

I don't understand why anyone would be rude, disrespectful and mean, just because someone says they want to be referred to a certain way.*

I am very uncomfortable about lying. I am offended by someone insisting that I must lie about something fundamental, that I must say something I believe not to be true.The people who are being rude and disrespectful are those who are coercing dishonesty for their own ends.

Remembering that Fred likes Diet Coke or not at the bar is not the same sort of same social etiquette as having to join in a distortion of language and meaning, , no matter how many times you use it as an example.

Teddy that is such a good point. Targeted medicine is looking very promising, and being accurate about biological identity is pretty fundamental.

It is very worrying seeing the level of scientific ignorance in society. People are getting half-baked ideas from the internet. Look at the awful problems caused by the anti-vaxxers movement. It would be tragic for even one person to die because nobody realises their sex.

xarra by identifying as agender I’m assuming that you have rejected gender stereotypes.

You come across as earnest and idealistic. Why not direct your energies towards advocating for those girls who don’t like dolls and pink and twirls and those boys who do?

Because humans can’t change sex, yet faffing around with pronouns and reciting lies like “her female penis” infers that they do. It’s important that children don’t believe they can actually change sex.

And yes, 'she was in the female changing rooms (with her penis out)' or 'they were in the female changing rooms (with their penis out)' is correct...

Well that's the difference. I don't want to see a penis in my changing room. I don't want to be compelled to call a penis a female organ. I don't want to have no option to tell the person to get out. And I don't want laws set in place that make it difficult for me or any other woman to not want to see a naked man when I, or my eight year old daughter, are disrobing.

Plenty of women walk around half naked in changing rooms, at gyms, etc. Do we have to enact laws that say certain women must remain clothed?

It's laughable that you think transwomen won't do this. When, clearly they are. Or people who are not trans saying they're trans. In which case, they are. Because that's all you have to do.

Every predator in the country, whether trans or not, can now dominate women when they are at their most vulnerable.

It really is intellectually dishonest to be unable to describe gender but want to make people accept gender identity, to not be able to tell me what a woman is, but claim lots of people identify as one and that sex isn't determined by biology, but many people's gender doesn't match their biological sex.

(Paraphrasing and credits to Vulvamort).

So don't bang on about what it means to be men and women, when you can't define either. Or how a person identifies as a woman, when you can't define either woman or, identify as. Or that some people's gender doesn't match their sex, when you can't define either of those words.

It's like talking to a five year old who just says 'because'.

I'm a woman. Identified correctly as a female at birth, brought up as a girl, and later on a woman.
I refuse to reject the evidence of my own senses. I'm a woman. I can spot men. I can spot women. We women can spot men. We women can spot women.

I really do wonder who the hell people think they are fooling, if they try to mislead healthcare professionals about something so basic and important as their actual physical sex.

"Gender" seems currently to be what we used to call "personality".

And just to reiterate, it's a criminal offence for a doctor to disclose the trans status of a patient.

So every time a trans person goes to the doctor and needs a referral, the doctor cannot disclose the trans status. I.e. their birth sex. When making the referral.

A GP on FWR felt professionally compromise, because what they thought was a gynecological cancer, had to be referred to as abdominal pain when making the referral to a specialist. Which would have not fast tracked the patient.

And yes, you can say it's the patient's responsibility. Good for you.

Yes, Datun - exactly. It's a crazy and dangerous state of affairs.

The cherry picking around logic by TRAs on this thread is astounding.

I'm wondering what happens if there is anecdotal evidence of an emerging health trend within the trans community that doesn't receiving funding because there is no data to make the case for funding? The medical establishment will likely be accused of transphobia but the request to collect accurate data is also designated transphobic. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

I don't agree with medical staff having the right to decline treatment on religious grounds so I don't think I can support the doctor in this case. If you have a moral objection to providing a full range of treatments within a given speciality then choose a speciality which enables you to practice medicine without a crisis of conscience, do not expect patients to pay the price for your beliefs. Although as a DWP assessor he would not be responsible for providing actual medical care but would be carrying out assessments for the purpose of providing information about eligibility for benefits. Doesn't sound like he'd actual finished the training for this job before he was sacked. I would personally respect pronouns but don't really think we should be compelled to under threat of dismissal.

Having said that I am really only willing to consider he/him, she/her, they/them pronouns mostly because I have no idea how to pronounce pronouns for the other 120 genders or how ever many there are today.

It really is intellectually dishonest to be unable to describe gender but want to make people accept gender identity, to not be able to tell me what a woman is, but claim lots of people identify as one and that sex isn't determined by biology, but many people's gender doesn't match their biological sex.

This!

You can live as a man or live as a woman, do as you please, i really dont care . We have to be honest and admit you cannot change your biology.Females do not have or never have had a prostate and males dont or never have had a cervix.

Biology is nothing to do with gender. Gender is what you present as, what you are. Biology is a meat-sack. I know transwomen and transmen who if I didn't know they were trans I wouldn't know because they look like, pass as, and present as their gender.

You can only be sure of someone's biology by looking in their pants.

Or did you miss where assigned female at birth women have been asked to leave the ladies toilet because they "look" masculine? You can't assume based on looks.

Biology is nothing to do with gender.

Most people on here will agree. Why then do people insist they should be able to compete in sports against the opposite sex in categories that are defined by sex, not gender?

Xarra We know! have you not understood that yet? We now you won't listen and will continue to repeat yourself, your beliefs, your faulty science, without pondering any 'side issues' or other opininions or facts.

We get it. You are Woke. Well done!

Oh, and stop talking about 'passing' - that is transphobic! Again, not my idea...