to think the term lionesses is sexist

[greenlloon]

or at least its odd as we dont call the men lions we call them england we should call the women England but also adding an ess to a noun an be considered sexist by many. it has just struck me as odd.

So presumably we should do away with all "esses" to follow suit and actually stop calling actual lionesses on the African continent "female lions". And tigresses "female tigers"?

We've got lots of female thespians who refuse to be called actresses and just use the term actor. So maybe we should extend that across the board?

I think it's actually an interesting debate on a wider scale but I don't agree with you that it's use with regards the female football team is deliberately sexist.

Hands up the 9 people who clicked on the wrong button - no way anyone is supporting this nonsense

That 9 would be 94, percentages you see.

I'm amazed how many people really can't grasp the importance of basic embedded semantic sexism. As I've said before I quite like Lionesses as a team name so I'm a bit on the fence with this particular word in this context, but the sexism of words DOES MATTER - just because it seems like a small issue and isn't FGM or abortion rights, doesn't mean it doesn't matter. In fact overt and large-scale sexism is deeply related to embedded, unnoticed sexism.

It doesn't matter if you say lion-esses or female lions. The entire point is that you should have to mark out the female, because when we say an animal we usually assume the default is male. It's like saying "female pilot" or "female surgeon" (or indeed "male nurse"). Every time that happens the message sinks in - the default is male - even if you don't think about it. Especially if you don't think about it. (Except for low-paid, caring jobs for example - where the default is female. Surprise.)

Every time you see an astronaut picture and talk to your kids about the "spaceman" or "he" by default. Every time you see a squirrel or a spider and talk about "he". Etc etc. This is just one of many, many ways that women from birth get the message that they are secondary, an afterthought, not the norm, and men are the default and the norm and come first. Boys get that message too.

Then we wonder why so many women put up with shit treatment from men and so many men (and some women) dole out shit treatment to women. It's all part of the same thing. THAT'S THE POINT.

When women get nasty and belittling and bullying to other women for being "petty" and easily offended for raising this - way to totally miss the point and shoot yourself in the foot.

And it's nothing to do with "woke" trends - as a lifelong feminist I hate all this woke shit. Feminist have been pointing embedded sexism and its consequences out for over 100 years (and getting scorned for it).

You misunderstand me if you think I go around making a fuss about every instance of sexism I see. (I don't have time for one) I don't rant on about it either, except on threads like this where people are being nasty to those who raise this.

I would ask though, if you think I'm ridiculous and hilarious, and so is my argument, how do you think sex inequality works? Why FGM. Why the DV and coercive control statistics we have. Why so many women in shit low paid part time jobs. Why so many of our rights being undermined and threatened, like abortion? Why doesn't this just all stop?

All those things have nothing to do with calling the England team Lionesses!!

That's the hilarious part. The was that SJW can link bloody anything to be offended.

And dismissive, bullying, sneery put-downs like yours, and others on this thread, are generally done by people who feel very uncomfortable and threatened. Why does feminism upset you so much? I'm only pointing things out. I'm not saying you can't live however you like, and ignore inequalities if you consider them too petty. I'm just pointing out that those on this thread who see sexism in these small things actually have a point and are not just being petty.

Lots of teams are named after animals. The Kiwis, the Wallabies, the Springboks.

All those animals are indigenous to the countries concerned. Lions are not indigenous to England. If Sudan called themselves the Polar Bears, and Ethiopia were the Penguins, then England being the Lions would make more sense!!

"C'mon you pigeons" has a nice ring to it.

Feminism doesn't upset me at all.

This BS of being offended by the term Lioness isn't feminism. It's pathetic new age 'woke' that will hopefully die out soon.

Offended my arse. I'm not offended by the term lionesses. I'm just pointing out that it is inherently sexist. Aware of how language works and has sexism embedded in it, does not equal offended.

It's not sexist. And no matter how often you keep saying it it won't make it happen.

I've explained why the -esses suffix is sexist, as have others. Instead of flinging insults about "woke" why don't you just explain why it's not sexist? With an actual rational argument rather than just sneering.

It doesn't matter if you say lion-esses or female lions. The entire point is that you should have to mark out the female, because when we say an animal we usually assume the default is male. It's like saying "female pilot" or "female surgeon" (or indeed "male nurse"). Every time that happens the message sinks in - the default is male - even if you don't think about it. Especially if you don't think about it. (Except for low-paid, caring jobs for example - where the default is female. Surprise.)

Nursing is not a low paid job. It may not be as high as some might like, but it isn't low.

Also, don't we say "male model". Even if it's the Milan catwalk, earning £10K a day. The default for modelling, which can be a very lucrative career, is female.

And it's nothing to do with "woke" trends - as a lifelong feminist I hate all this woke shit. Feminist have been pointing embedded sexism and its consequences out for over 100 years (and getting scorned for it).
I'm not a feminist at all but I agree with the fact that it's embedded sexism. 'Lionesses' is twee and silly. I watch a lot of sport and sports reporting and noticed this term quite a few years back. Clare Balding used it ad nauseum.

omg shut up

Yes you're right about models, sorry. Feminists would point out that associating primarily women with models is to do with another sexist aspect of society, namely there being more expectations and pressure around women's appearance.

(I know, it's almost as if silly feminists like me can see sexism everywhere we look!)

But I do take your point that they are well-paid, and of course there are lots of well-paid women. No one is saying all women are low paid and treated like shit - it's more about general (but significant) trends.

Nursing is not as low-paid as some jobs, but it is low paid compared to doctors and surgeons, who are not assumed to be female. And many similar caring jobs like auxiliary nursing, childcare workers, care home workers and care visit workers who are almost all female, are extremely low paid.

omg shut up

:o wow the level of debate on this thread

la la la la la la la la I won't shut up. I don't know, bu not shutting up maybe feminists could get us the vote, abortion rights, contraception (it's your friend), rape within marriage laws... oh hang on!

Leicester Tigers? Not an indigenous animal in the East Midlands as far as I’m aware.

You know I didn't post that right?

But to be honest you've just bored me and I can't be arsed. It's to hot and I'm to pregnant.

But those things do matter. But this doesn't.

And when you and others like you make a big song and dance about BS like this. It dilutes all the other arguments. Because ones people ear mark someone (or a group) as BSC they stop listening. So it doesn't matter if further down the line you actually start trying to say something intelligent. Your card has been marked.

Lions only used a bit less in men's because when you say lions you tend to think Lisbon Lions rather than England.

It's not sexist. People call the men's team the Three Lions. Lionesses are better than lions at everything too 😊

FFS!!!!! I think I'm going to save my feminist agenda for something that actually matters[ hmm]

People call the men's team the Three Lions They don't. They call them 'England'

That’s 5 minutes I won’t get back

Leicester Tigers? Not an indigenous animal in the East Midlands as far as I’m aware.

I thought Leicester were the foxes? That's a very English animal. Are the Leicester tigers a team that play that stupid game with the daft shaped ball. If so, do they play in orange and black stripes? That would be a reason to call themselves tigers. England play in white. Albino lions?