Nasty

[Snooky84]

Aibu to think mumsnet is getting nastier and crueler. When we should be supporting each other or giving well meant advice.
Also what's the worst thing you've ever read on mumsnet?

No one argues that transpeople shouldn't be treated with compassion.

I - along with most women on FWR - don't have a lot of time for men who trample over women's boundaries. That's what the majority of the discussion is about.

If you don't like it - and FWR has been going strong for 6 or 7 years, then I hear Netmums doesn't like intelligent debate.

The double standards are terrible here. When a man does not want children, the advice from MN is simple - he should keep it in his pants. Recently, there was a thread where the wife wanted another DC, the husband didn't. So the husband kept it in his pants. He got called every name under the sun.

But is that the same people adopting inconsistent positions, or different people? On any forum, there will be threads where the majority says This, and other threads where different FMs will be in the majority and the prevailing view will be That. It's a forum, not a hive mind!

I also think that forums are perhaps not the thing for those of delicate sensibilities. Some are just dreadful. I don't think AIBU is bad, tbh, compared to many that I've visited.

And no-one's forced to come on AIBU, after all. The rest of MN is much gentler, and there are plenty of other parenting and relationship forums for those who find MN a bit rich for their blood.

Saying that you don't accept that a woman can have a penis isn't transphobic.

No, it definitely is. It really, really is. You don’t have to straight up say ‘I hate trans people’ to be transphobic. Seems like a common misconception on mumsnet apparently.

How is stating 'women don't have penises' transphobic - don't just say it is, say why it is.

I don't have a phobia of trans people, I just don't trust men trying to barge their way into female spaces. It's a massive red flag. And if you cannot see that then I really do feel for you.

I have found the trans/feminism posts helpful and informative. Until joining here I’d kind of blithely accepted the trans narrative “TWAW”, “born in the wrong body”, the “cis” prefix without even thinking about it and the posts have really helped me dismantle all that.

The world has gone well and truly mad if "women don't have penises" is a unacceptably nasty thing to say!

This isn’t really what we’re saying though. It’s not just this type of comment (although it is a transphobic one). It’s all of the following:

• constant misgendering (and btw, calling a person ‘they’ or ‘them’ instead of their preferred pronouns IS misgendering)

• the insistence that there is an irrefutable ‘biological reality’ that penis = male, despite the fact that there is pretty solid consensus in the scientific community that your genitals do not determine your gender, and the fact that there is food evidence that your gender is biologically determined even when it does not correspond with your sex

• the constant references to Karen White as though she’s remotely representative of trans people, and despite the fact that trans rights groups have unequivocally criticised the decision to place her in a women’s prison given her offending history etc.

• the attempts to whip up hysteria about trans women having the right to use female loos and changing rooms despite the fact that this is something trans people have been doing for ten years (without the need for a GRC, contrary to what many on here believe)

• the tedious repetition of the question ‘please explain how a person can change sex’ which is persistently whipped out as though it’s an ace card that was hidden up a sleeve, despite the fact that it is repeated ad nauseam that being transgender isn’t about changing sex, that sex and gender are not the same thing, that your sex does not determine your gender.

• the attempts to frame transphobia as concern for or a desire to protect lesbians, despite the fact that lesbians have been neglected, oppressed, abused and belittled for decades without anyone giving much of a shit about them. Those who only started caring about lesbians when they realised it was an opportunity to dress up their transphobia in an allegedly acceptable veneer are concern-trolls.

Mumsnet has adopted a very narrow definition of transphobia which essentially only challenges posts containing actual slurs. I appreciate that they’re trying to find a balance which still allows for free expression, and that isn’t an easy task. But it has had the unfortunate side effect of emboldening transphobes, because now people can say ‘mumsnet deletes transphobic posts!’ and perpetuate the fantasy that anything not deleted by mumsnet is totally legitimate and inoffensive. That position ignores the true atmosphere on this site, which is one of hostility, misinformation, pseudo-science, prejudice and fear.

If I don't believe in gender, how can I possibly misgender someone?

"But is that the same people adopting inconsistent positions, or different people? On any forum, there will be threads where the majority says "

This is what I don't get about people complaining about inconsistencies. There are different people and therefore different opinions. Hardly surprising. I'd say this is one of the few places where women and men are treated roughly equally.

constant misgendering (and btw, calling a person ‘they’ or ‘them’ instead of their preferred pronouns IS misgendering)

Correctly sexing someone, is more important than misgendering them.

Why do you think their feelings are more important than women's and girls safety?

It's fucking bizarre.

@VivienneHolt You have summed up everything I would like to say very eloquently! Sadly I have essentially given up debating this topic on MN as it’s very much an aggressive echo chamber.

If I don't believe in gender, how can I possibly misgender someone?

This is just too disingenuous to respond to, really. I expect you succeed in referring to your non-trans friends by a gendered pronoun regardless of whether you believe in gender, so I imagine you could easily extend this courtesy to trans people.

I generally try to avoid any engagement with trans debates on this site because I find them intensely frustrating and because in all the time I have been here having these debates I know I have never changed anyone’s mind or even encouraged them to consider things from another perspective, so it isn’t helpful. I sometimes do it anyway because I think it can be valuable to illustrate that there are people out here supporting trans people and making a case for their rights, but I can only do that when I have the time and energy, which I don’t today. I’m also aware I’ve hijacked OP’s thread, which was not at all about trans rights. So I am bowing out of this one now.

@mabelmylove thank you - totally agree about the echo chamber! Just not worth discussing it really, which is sad!

So I am bowing out of this one now.

Of course. It would be a surprise if you did anything other than that.

I don't / won't ever believe that a person can change their sex. I'm not transphobic.

Of course. It would be a surprise if you did anything other than that

Indeed, it would. Not engaging with mumsnet transphobia has for me been a hugely helpful act of self-preservation on many an occasion before now!

Wow!

You say all of that, Vivienne as though you are unequivocally in the right. You are not. That's the point, the root cause of teh whole TRA debate!

Science is never unequivocal and certianly is not on sex and gender - mainly because the 2 terms are often used interchangeably, usually to mislead, and so a sentence including both of them never means the same thing to different readers.

Wopmen here have never said that transwomen need a GRC to use female loos. What is said, often, is that whilst women have been polite and turend a blind eye for decades, TRA actions have meant that many women are no longer willing to do so. So TRA demands, all the dennying of the possible ramifications of Self ID have damaged the relationship between women and transwomen. That is explained to posters like you on a dialy basis. Yet here you are repeating a twisted version of what really is posted to try and make your point.

Your point about Karen White is, as you well know through being on many of those threads, is NOT That he is representative of any/all trans individuals. But that he refutes the oft repeated statement that no man saying he is trans will be allowed / placed in a female space and go on to hurt women. It DOES happen.

How many MORE women will be sexually assaulted by a man saying he is a woman before you will accept that such men pose a real risk to women?

Mind you, your post as a whole reads very well, almost a text book case of double think and word salad. That you have to twist and lie to make your point just shows how poor a point it is !

I also find the transphobia by far the worst thing about this place. It's a shame really as a lot of the other threads are very supportive and informative. There just seems to be something about trans discussions that bring out the bigots and it disgusts me. I've also hidden the feminism board because I just can't with all the gross anti-trans hate. I am very sad to think a vulnerable transperson could read all that vile bile and think that it's the majority opinion.

Vivienne I wouldn't bother, we both know it isn't worth engaging with them. Nothing will change their minds, I just hope nobody they love ever ends up being trans and having to deal with that level of revolting bigotry in their lives.

... Also what's the worst thing you've ever read on mumsnet?

disingenuous much?

Just not worth discussing it really, which is sad!

It seems a real shame that people believe strongly in something and want to defend people and their lives

But won’t

Because of words on a screen...

People on FWR say they post for the lurkers...and some people continue to post even though the6 think it’s futile. And yes, it will be an echo chamber if no one else posts

How can saying Women don't have penises be transphobic?

Have I woken up in a parallel universe?

Rufus, no one else posts because if you dare to voice a differing opinion there are then huge amounts of women piling on you in ways that are unfortunately often not respectful debate

fovas.wordpress.com/response-to-stonewall-2/

I am very sad to think a vulnerable transperson could read all that vile bile and think that it's the majority opinion.

I'd read round about how vulnerable women feel when told they must accept a transwoman into crisis shelters. And then I might just have a re-think about spouting such trite, virtue signalling crap!

because if you dare to voice a differing opinion

But your post still stands...and other people will see it

But I appreciate that it can be difficult...i get the hot sweats if someone has a pop at me....but if someone feels strongly then its worth doing

If you believe that saying 'men can't be women' or 'women don't have penises' is 'transphobia' then yes, this place is an absolute cesspit.

How can saying Women don't have penises be transphobic?

Have I woken up in a parallel universe?

Fortunately Mumsnet is one of the few places on the internet where women can point out that biological sex exists. That’s exactly why Mumsnetters are criticised so incessantly, as is apparent from this thread.

I’ll be very interested to see @MNHQ response to this thread given their heavy-handed moderation of yesterday’s thread surrounding trans people and sport....