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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

999 replies

Cassort · 02/07/2019 00:53

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
TwoPupsandaHamster · 04/07/2019 18:13

Orangeballon

Has this person got a penis, that will answer your question

Ah! But would that be a male penis or a female penis? 🤔🙄😂

SoupDragon · 04/07/2019 18:13

All children should also know that it's not possible to change sex, and we need to stop this lie being taught to them in school

I agree. I do think they can live as whatever gender they wish but this is not the same as sex - that can't be changed. I do think that a vast number would be happy with that TBH

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/07/2019 18:13

There is one trans pupil and DS says they are cool and doesn’t make a huge fuss about everything. Just gets on with it. There are girls in the upper years and I haven’t really probed to see which bathrooms /changing rooms they use and if they board/which classmates rooms they can visit (as mixed sex bedroom visits are verboten). I have to say if I have a girl border I would really be asking.

It seems to be the straight non-gender non conforming kids that do the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Datun · 04/07/2019 18:18

Gender: the socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

Women used to be considered to unimportant to educate. Then they were considered too uneducated and fluffy to vote (giving a woman the vote would be like giving her husband two votes).

They were considered irresponsible with money, so their husband, or a male member of the family had to sign the loan agreement or mortgage.

Children would be the property of their husband, no matter what.

In my lifetime, quite recently, pub landlords were perfectly entitled to refuse to serve women, on the basis that they were female.

Until 1992 rape within marriage was completely legal. Since your wife was your property.

Women have, variously and recently, been thought of as property, crap with money, stupid, unenlightened, there for sex on demand, and completely unimportant.

That's 'gender'.

The socially constructed roles, behaviours, activities, and attributes that a given society considers appropriate for men and women.

And now it's being used to shut down their voice, sport, spaces, representation and rights.

Datun · 04/07/2019 18:21

I don't get why mumsnet is so anti-trans

And you can fuck off with this self-centred bollocks.

Does anyone seriously think that women would give a flying fuck about men who identify as the 'female gender', if it didn't directly, wholly and profoundly affect women's sex based rights. Who's got the damn time??

HugsAreMyDrugs · 04/07/2019 18:22

I don't get why mumsnet is so anti-trans

And I don't get why the world is so anti women.

IncandescentShadow · 04/07/2019 18:34

OP - little girls are still routinely banned from playing football and other sports with boys. Its more of an issue for girls because participation levels are lower than for males, so in some areas, there are simply no teams for them to join. How telling it is then that there is so much publicity over this one example. I quickly googled "girls banned from playing in boys' football team" and came across loads of examples. I didn't even look at any other sports:

www.thesun.co.uk/sport/9385122/englands-womens-football-team-mexico-1971-world-cup/

www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-43844723/the-12-year-old-girl-who-was-banned-from-playing-football

Why does this still happen? See this:

www.historyextra.com/period/first-world-war/1921-when-football-association-banned-women-soccer-dick-kerr-ladies-lily-parr/

Thump · 04/07/2019 18:35

*The phrase "born in the wrong body" is an attempt to communicate what having severe sex dysphoria feels like. I don't think the people who came up with it expected other, non dysphoric, people to take it quite so literally.

To take it literally requires a belief in gendered souls. You've got these souls with a sex of their own floating around. We're expected to believe that these souls sometimes for some unknown reason land in bodies of the wrong sex.

I find the concept totally preposterous. The Pope who, unlike me, specialises in souls says that God doesn't do random shit like that. Though he put it more elegantly*

Most people didn't 'believe' that people could be sexually attracted to the same sex. The pope who you revere, in fact, still doesn't believe in it. But yet... Here we are, where it is now accepted.

I get that some of you are possibly getting on in years and stuck in your ways, but it's time to move with the times.

As for the comparison of the Rosa Parks inference as being likened to Men = White; Women = Black. No.
The analogy was to a minority of the population who are transgender. A minority who are frequently bullied, excluded and discriminated against. So I do feel that the OPs reference was analagous.

Can I also just say that throughout this thread you are referencing men and boys when the thread clearly refers to a transgender female.

Thump · 04/07/2019 18:37

Anti trans my arse. Pro women isn’t anti anything. Try again. With examples and show your working out.

Pro trans is not anti women. How's that for an example?

OldCrone · 04/07/2019 18:42

Can I also just say that throughout this thread you are referencing men and boys when the thread clearly refers to a transgender female.

The child in the OP is a boy who thinks he's a girl. Did you not understand that?

OldCrone · 04/07/2019 18:43

Thump

Could you answer a couple of questions? Do you think it is possible to literally be born in the wrong body? Do you think it is possible for humans to change sex?

OldCrone · 04/07/2019 18:44

I get that some of you are possibly getting on in years and stuck in your ways, but it's time to move with the times.

Back in time, you mean?

Datun · 04/07/2019 18:45

I get that some of you are possibly getting on in years and stuck in your ways, but it's time to move with the times.

Ageism?

It's almost a full house, what with the misogyny and racism.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/07/2019 18:46

Elevating the wants and needs of a tiny minority of people over 51% of the population is anti women.

Why are woman demonised for asking questions, and wanting to debate and have answers to questions like ‘should a male bodied person just be allowed to use woman only faculties because he says so’? Or ‘how can I protect my daughters on a girl guide trip when they allow male bodied (hormonal) teen boys to share tents or be leaders?’ Or ‘should I be concerned that they have trans/drag readers in public libraries and there are photos of one lying the ground with small children lying on top of them when I need a drb to read at my kids school and they kids don’t even get a handshake from Santa in his grotto these days?’ Or even ‘what type of man demands access to rape victims as a volunteer knowing full well that they have been traumatised by a male?’

A London fire station now has mixed sexual changing and sleeping facilities (women not asked). Why would they do this? Because the trans train has pushed this - nothing to do with sex equality, all to do with so called ‘inclusion’.

JacquesHammer · 04/07/2019 18:46

Pro trans is not anti women. How's that for an example?

Except it doesn’t work.

Women are not trying to infiltrate trans space.

Why is the concept of sex-segregation where necessary such anathema?

I have no issue with trans people. I have every issue with someone of the opposite sex trying to be part of something that has been hard bloody won at the expense of a biological woman.

Datun · 04/07/2019 18:47

The analogy was to a minority of the population

First of all men are not a minority. They are the seat of power. Hence patriarchy. Hence this only being an issue for women, not an issue for men. No man gives a fuck if a woman is entering his prison, sport, changing room, or toilet.

Secondly, being a minority does not confer credibility. Paedophiles are a minority.

LordProfFekkoThePenguinPhD · 04/07/2019 18:48

All this crap is hurting transsexuals. That’s all. Plus if I see another bloody rainbow and ‘love for all’ bullshit I will vomit.

Thump · 04/07/2019 18:48

I get an overall impression from the posters here that you feel that being trans is a temporary notion, a phase, something most people go through; it will pass.
That is very closed minded and insulting to people who have battled their entire lives, many times to the detriment of their mental health and success and happiness in life.
The vehemence with which you have picked on the sporting question on MN is telling. It's like you've found one argument where you can argue against transsexualism because facts and biology etc.

You really should try and disguise your bigotry a little better.

Thump · 04/07/2019 18:51

As far as I know, this thread is about this one child - the OP said that she didn't want to engage in a general trans debate. Maybe stick to the topic.

Datun · 04/07/2019 18:51

The vehemence with which you have picked on the sporting question on MN is telling. It's like you've found one argument where you can argue against transsexualism because facts and biology etc.

🤣🤣🤣 because of facts and biology.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 04/07/2019 18:51

Thump
I think 11 is too young to be making decisions about medical treatment such as puberty blockers that could do lifelong harm. Not because I think it’s a phase but because I think you need greater maturity to understand the full implications of the decision.

Thump · 04/07/2019 18:52

Elevating the wants and needs of over 51% of the population over a tiny minority of people is anti trans.

Datun · 04/07/2019 18:53

... because facts and biology etc.
You really should try and disguise your bigotry a little better.

Honestly, you couldn't make it up.

You're even saying it out loud. Facts and biology are bigoted 🤣

Datun · 04/07/2019 18:54

Elevating the wants and needs of over 51% of the population over a tiny minority of people is anti trans.

What the ever loving fuck! What is wrong with you?

Sarahjconnor · 04/07/2019 18:55

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.