AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

excellent scientific evidence? Don’t think so.

It isn’t transphobic to want single sex sports, facilities and services.

If there was scientific evidence wouldn't they just do a brain scan? Or a blood test and be done with it?

What do you mean brains wired for the opposite gender? Research is debunking the idea of male and female brains. I am not female because of brain wiring; I am female because of chromosomes.

People with DSD have repeatedly asked not to be included in the trans discussions as their condition is completely separate.

Intersex has nothing to do woth trans people

Your genitals are a useful signifier of whether your body is of either male or female sex. This is what matters as far as sport goes. If you have a penis, in 99.9% of cases, excluding disorders of sex, then you will have male chromosomes and go through male puberty. This is deisgned to have a different effect on your body than a female puberty would, making male bodies bigger, taller, stronger with more musculature etc. Even if there were scientific evidence to say you can have a 'female brain in a male body' it wouldnt matter as the thing that counts in sport is your physical body.

Can't believe i am having to explain this.

No. Yabu.

One day my daughter or your daughter might lose an Olympic gold medal to a man if this is allowed to continue.
I have a lot of empathy for this child and anybody who has such a big struggle but I don't think their right to change their gender trumps the rights of biological women.

brains wired for the opposite gender

Utter gobbledygook. (Being kind.)

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-00677-x

Neurosexism

There was some research from Holland that showed that there is a hormonal trigger at a certain point during pregnancy that sets up the brain as female or male. I'm not talking about male and female brains being different in terms of men are better at parking, i mean in terms of how people see themselves. I'll try and find it.

Transgender people fundamentally feel they were born in the wrong body. They take hormones and have surgery to make their outside match their inside.

That young boy can take hormones to stop male adolescence if he chooses and his parents and doctors support it. In my eyes that would mean he would never be a man.

I haven't read all the comments because I can't stand how vicious the anti trans stuff gets here.

Receipts please?

There was some research from Holland that showed that there is a hormonal trigger at a certain point during pregnancy that sets up the brain as female or male

Link or reference please?

I don't believe that male and female brains are different.

But where does your sense of being a woman come from? It's not just learned behaviour and your sex organs. There must be some deep sense of self that comes from somewhere else. If you put my mind in a man's body I wouldn't be a man.

I say mind not brain - I am not talking about brain structure and neurons, i am talking about a sense of self.

But Tigerjoy, they will also never become a girl or a woman. Girls are not boys who don't go through male puberty.

But where does your sense of being a woman come from?

I don't have a "sense" of being a woman.

I am one because I have XX chromosomes.

I am of the female sex.

Having a "sense" of your gender will never change your sex nor will it negate the physical advantages men have over women.

Tiger
It is very difficult to separate nature and nurture in assessing the development of the sense of self. It has been shown that adults treat young boys and girls differently in accordance to gender stereotypes. How much of our sense of self is learned from those around us and how much is innate is very hard to split out.

He may never be a man TigerJoy but he won't be a woman. He will be in some suspended childhood, prepubescent forever.

There are so many sports that certain characteristics like height etc... are beneficial for I.e. basketball. I would make a useless jockey because I'm tall so it's not something I'd get into. My body just isn't right for that particular sport.

But a 6ft man competing against a 6ft woman is still going to be more likely to win. The fact a 6ft woman might be more likely to win than a 5ft one is irrelevant, they are both women.

But where does your sense of being a woman come from? It's not just learned behaviour and your sex organs.

See, for me, that's exactly where it has come from. Living my entire life in a female body. I know I'm a woman because I have a female body, and have had the experience of living in that body.

Transgender people fundamentally feel they were born in the wrong body. They take hormones and have surgery to make their outside match their inside.

Feeling like you were born in the wrong body and actually being born in the wrong body are two entirely different things. Do you believe that a 6 stone person with anorexia is actually fat?

If you put my mind in a man's body I wouldn't be a man.

We can't do this, it's impossible, so let's not go there. And even if you could, you have had however many years of having the lived experience of living as a female, which is totally different to someone who has had zero years (or even seconds) of living as a female.

Well this thread was quite the read! Glad to see it was reinstated. It's been a while since I've seen an OP disintegrate to that degree!

Well done on all the great counter replies.

If you put my mind in a man's body I wouldn't be a man.

Would you then feel comfortable competing against women with your man body? (Leaving aside the fact that minds do not exist independently of body.)

A sense of self etc is basically just personality. I've never met a woman and no woman on here says they have a sense of being a woman. We just are a woman.

The rest is basically just the butterfly effect. If you hadnt fallen over on your first day of school you would somehow possibly changed the chain if events that led you to being who your are today. Kinda thing.

People are who they are because of their experiences and the way people treat then and everything that has happened or they have done in their life. If you changed anything, hair colour , sex, tattoo choice even it may have led you to he different or to he treated differently.

That's not a case of being a man or a woman it's a case of everything the whole time. Being a man or a woman is such a small part of who you are in that sense.

It's why feeling like a woman is so ridiculous because there is no one way each of us is different.

And as PP have said, feeling or having a sense of a certain gender does not change the biological advantages of your sex. You can't just feel that away unfortunately.

Brains are not 'wired'.

Information about your surroundings including feedback from your body is used by your brain to shape its connections.

Yes, it would be a shock if your brain suddenly arrived in a different body, especially one with connections to different organs -- but it's not going to happen, is it? You cannot transplant a brain complete with its experiences and connections into a different skull.

Anyhow, as far as I can see, this child is skating on their feet rather than their head, and should be competing in the category for their body rather than their inner-concept-of-gender.

I know the OP is long gone but I just wanted to say this. OP said

If one child comes second in a race, it's not the end of the world

If one child is told she can't compete, that possibly is the end of the world. Particularly if she is also going through the hell of being othered, hated, ridiculed, bullied, picked on etc. That sport might be all she's got

So if a girl comes second it doesn’t natter about her feelings. Because she should put the feelings of a boy first.

No one is saying that the child in the Op can’t compete. They just can’t compete in a class they are not eligible for.

Same as I can’t run in an over 70s race . Even if I feel like it’s the end of the world and running is all I’ve got. Because all the over 70 runners don’t have to give up their rights to make me feel better.

They take hormones and have surgery to make their outside match their inside.

And the 80 odd percent of transwomen (if someone has the actual stat I'm happy to be corrected) that don't have surgery to make them 'match their inside'? Are they not really trans because they like their existing physiology and don't want to change it?

Match how? How are men and women supposed to feel? Who says? My insides are mostly pink and squishy I assume, with some bones.

Who decides - what if you are a woman who loathes dresses and make up, and is happier playing football and building shelves - should you be encouraged to have your body medically changed to ‘fit’ your insides/soul/wtf?