AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

they want the validation of being "female"

I think there is a strong element of this. Not just a woman, but the best woman.

What if this child takes hormone treatment so that her body develops into that of a woman rather than a man? What sex should she compete as then??

That people really think that men can take hormones and 'grow' a woman's body is incredible. People that have such little understanding of biology really really should not be influencing policy which involves women's rights/sports etc

I think it’s such a difficult topic

I think it’s ptetty straightforward: if you are male-bodied you have a number of physiological advantages which mean that it’s not sporting or ‘fair’ to compete against female-bodied athletes.

The upshot of this is that either a small number of trans women do not get to compete in the category that matches their stated internal gender identity, or female-born athletes resign themselves to a lifetime coming 2nd, 3rd, 4th, etc.

Take all the hormones in the world - it won’t make a male a female. Nope. Not going to happen.

People are dying in the world and the activism middle class (lets be honest) Mumsnetters choose is to actively work to dehumanise and take away the rights of other people who haven't done almost anything bad yes cherry pick like you all do but that's the truth. Brave stuff you're doing guys I hope you're children will be proud of you for it when you're gone

My children are working class BME females.

So, I are fighting for protection of their rights and spaces and ability to partake equally in society. I am fighting mostly against a demographic of middle-class, middle-aged autogynaephilic males, which is what transactivists mostly are; Using the cutesy kids who don't conform to gender stereotypes, with flakey woke parents, to validate their sexual fetishes.

As a secondary concern, I hope that the 'fight' protects those gender-no confirming kids from the imposition of harmful pharmaceuticals and unnecessary cosmetic surgeries

That people really think that men can take hormones and 'grow' a woman's body is incredible

It is worrying, yes. How can anyone believe that a male body ‘becomes’ a female body by virtue of artificially altering their natural hormone levels?

I saw one numpty on twitter announce that their feet size had shrunk since they started taking hormones. IQ maybe, but feet??? 😂

Sadly, as mentioned in the play on R4 last week, the younger children are transed, the less advantage males will have.

So let’s make sure transing starts at what age? Three maybe?

I think the real problem here is that - actually you cannot change sex. Why does this child think she is a girl? That is the crux of it. What stereotypes does this child feels she does not fit in with? The reality of “becoming a girl” then a woman, as this child wishes, requires puberty blockers, then testosterone, then possibly surgery. Hormones for children are experimental. It is thought they risk the proper development of the skeleton, and the brain, increase the risk of medical conditions, cause fertility and sexual dysfunction. Can an 11 year old understand that? Understand that having a partner may be problematic, or that having children will not be possible or that orgasms may not be possible?

This is the lie that children are told - that they can “become” the opposite sex. It may be that some children need to transition, such is their dysphoria, but in the vast number of cases, children grow out of their dysphoria. Transitioning, just isn’t a good solution from what I can see. It’s a last resort.

announce that their feet size had shrunk since they started taking hormones

And so ignorant of what happens to most women as a result of their biological role in reproduction of the human race.

Women's feet actually do the opposite of shrinking in pregnancy and as we age ...

It was funny though! Like a certain Canadian personage claiming anorexia.

Or period pains ...

I'm.sure I read or heard in an interview somewhere that actually taking oestrogen helps maintain bone density and that in itself is an advantage.
Obviously doenst apply to children who went on the danger drugs aka "puberty blockers" who's bones will potentially have issues with strength and density but adult males who transition , well their bones remain stronger fir their age than a womans would on account if our oestrogen levels decreasing with age

The child should not be allowed to compete as female.
I have a teen dd who is a very good athlete. I am very concerned about the future of women's sport.

What if this child takes hormone treatment so that her body develops into that of a woman rather than a man? What sex should she compete as then??

It's alarming that anyone thinks such a thing is possible. But ignorance like this is not that uncommon apparently. A teacher started a thread in Feminism Chat a while back about how she'd discovered that least one normally bright teenage boy in her class thought that the phrase "sex change operation" meant the person actually changed sex.

If there are quite a number of people who think human beings can change sex it would explain a lot.

I could have by whole body tattooed with black stripes but it wouldn’t make me a zebra. Or would it (I like zebras)?

I once dropped my keys in a market place. I didn't realise and strode along in my jeans, leather jacket, converse hi-tops and short hair. It was the 80s.
"Sir, sir, you've dropped your keys". With apologies to me when I turned around having realised the key finder was talking to me. Should I have transitioned because I "looked like a bloke"?

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I think in all likelihood that in 20 years time a very conservative society will take a dim view of what doctors were prepared to do to children in our time, and that adults who were prepared to go along with it will be seen in that light.

Perhaps not, though. Time will tell.

No bellinisurge you should clearly have caused some serious criminal damage whilst insisting "It's MA'AM". You know, as women do.

the younger children are transed, the less advantage males will have.

Less advantage than the current majority of TW in sports who transitioned in adulthood having undergone a full male puberty and reached adult development, yes. But it wont remove all the skeletal/nerve advantages that are within a male body compared to a female body. They're two totally different operating systems, the one can't be turned into the other. It also sounds like such a derogatory thing towards women to me when I find myself writing something like that - as if women are arguably just weak men with added hormones. Sport for women should be about the extreme abilities and achievements of the female body, not about women surrendering all of that to prioritise making a male born person feel included and validated in their chosen identity.

However these poor kids are under such huge risks right now of surgical complications, regret and detransitioning with the impact on wellbeing and mental health, lifetime chronic illness from the medications they have taken including things like brittle bones, extreme fatigue.... we're going to be lucky if this group are well enough to lead typical lives, never mind become elite athletes.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

Oh dear God.

In 20 years' time people will wonder why teenage girls have had their breasts cut off and their uteruses have atrophied because they don't conform to your society's idea of female hood.

Why teenage boys have the genitalia of children and the fat distribution of women because they like sparkles.

And.

Why convicted, self confessed rapists are allowed to sexually assault incarcerated women.

Ffs.

Why here? Why Mumsnet?

Is your misogyny so compelling that you think women/mothers are fucking idiots???

Why does this child think she is a girl? That is the crux of it. What stereotypes does this child feels she does not fit in with?

Someone linked to this article earlier.
revistaladoa.com.br/2017/11/curitiba/casal-gay-adota-menina-transgenero-seus-dois-irmaos-em-curitiba/

It's in Portuguese, which I don't understand, so I used google translate.

From the slightly clunky translation:
"She began to behave definitively like a girl. She wore dresses, props, tried several times to pierce her ear to wear her sister's earring... At school, her biggest dream was to wear skirts and hair bows like the other girls...at home she spent hours in front of the mirror realizing her dream, carefully decorating her hair, her ear with her colorful earrings, and adjusting her skirt in uniform."

As with so many 'trans children', it seems that the adoptive parents decided the child was trans because the child doesn't conform to gender stereotypes. The child wants to wear dresses and hair bows, therefore the child is a girl.

The parents are twerps then. Why can’t a boy like pink or a girl like maths. Does that mean that all the female engineers are trans and all the male dancers are too?

Sacre bleu!

Thinking this through might it be possible to construct a handicap system that allows different sexes to compete together in individual sports.

No it wouldn't. Its too complicated for amateur levels, it doesn't work at all for contact sports, and it makes no difference for events such as ice skating where the sex of the skaters affects the way they perform.

A perfectly acceptable system already exists. Women have already had to fight for the right to compete once in living memory, and now we have the same fight on our hands again.

Absolutely @Cassort I agree she should totally be allowed to compete with the other little girls.
This yet again descends into hating on the trans community.
It's actually sickening.