AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

As a side note, the evil feminists really carry on getting a pounding though.

We are indeed. Women need do nothing but refuse the demands of TRAs to be classed as transphobic. It's an accusation that's been diluted until it's pretty much meaningless. Dictionary definitions, medicine, physical anthropology, crime stats - there's no limit to what qualifies.

But as feminists have said til we're blue in the face, we're standing up for women's rights not just trying to be mean to TRAs. Pretending there's no conflict of rights and refusing to debate is fooling fewer and fewer onlookers.

It's pretty clear from this thread that female solidarity is out in force. In favour of preserving women's sports for biological females only.

I mean, that's why we have men and women's sports separated in the first place.

It's not rocket science.

Mumsnetters choose is to actively work to dehumanise and take away the rights of other people who haven't done almost anything bad yes cherry pick like you all do

This is complete nonsense.

What do you mean by cherry pick flameylife? I'm talking about the statistical likelihood. You are saying that men who say they are women acquire the statistical likelihood of women to offend.

I'm asking how that happens? Or when it happens?

Yeah I could cherry pick violent women too to prove women were dangerous but the statistics don't back it up it is just cherry picking. And!...it'd been done before I even finished typing that you'd do it- who'd have though?! I'm not a trans activist but I stand up for all rights and I speak against people who have nothing better to do with their time that to make the world a more dangerous place for others.

I don't think reproductive systems make women 'real women' because that's what misogynists think!

Could you explain what a ‘woman’ is, in your understanding of the word, please?

I mean what you just did in your previous post @Datun - Pick one example of something to prove a non existent point.

Yeah I could cherry pick violent women too to prove women were dangerous but the statistics don't back it up it is just cherry picking.

Cherry picking doesn't affect statistics!

Men commit 98% of all sexually violent crime, and 90% of all violent crime.

I'm asking, how that changes if they identify as female?

flamely
This seems very over blown rhetoric. Reading through it seems there are practical issues with allowing boys to complete in girls sports, practical rather than theoretical ones.
What are your solutions to overcome the physical differences between the two groups and enable a level playing field if they compete together?

Wow BuzzShitbagBobbly you're literally looking me up to bully me.

Where did I bully you? Self-identifying is the solution, as the trans activists tell us every day. We have men id'ing as women, straight able-bodied as disabled, white as black. The only one that's caused an issue is when a straight man id'd as gay, because the gay man who lost to him didn't like it (although he thinks men as women is fine)

It may also shock you to know that we frequently get the aggressive trans activists signing up to MN precisely to "plop" into a thread like this. So it's pretty commonplace to see if they have a posting history.

Also yeah I do feel vulnerable being pregnant but I don't feel at all threatened and never have by trans women
Yeah, those bastard male predators. They'll do almost anything to harass/attack/rape/murder vulnerable women or children. I wonder what line they wouldn't cross...

Not much solidarity between the biological women on here either
Au contraire. It is ALL about solidarity for biological women, that's the whole point.

Let's hope (genuinely) you never come across any of the males I linked to above then. They will commit those crimes at the same frequency whether they are Leo or Leona, in a dress or in a suit, wearing lipstick or aftershave.

I'm not activist of any sort I'm just an ordinary person. A mum. I don't know what scares me more.. The current, developing situation, the fact anyone questioning self ID is being jumped on as transphobic or the fact that there are so many people seemingly blind to how catastrophic this whole developing situation could turn out to be for girls and women in a faction's ongoing mission to be fashionably woke. Really, really frightened for the girls and women of the future.

Wow BuzzShitbagBobbly you're literally looking me up to bully me

In what sense were you ‘bullied’ by having one of your posts quoted back to you?

Can you show me some actual statistics about the violent crime rate committed by transgender people? Because that wouldn't be recorded as male violent crime would it unless they were transgender men and biological woman...? Correct me if I'm wrong with that.

flameylife if my daughter grows up to be a sportswoman, my whole family will be proud that we spoke up.

Why aren't Women protecting Women's sport? I'll accept any trans person wholeheartedly but they can't compete it the women's category. And if they are honest, they know!

Can you show me some actual statistics about the violent crime rate committed by transgender people?

Take your pick. transcrimeuk.com/

Yabu, he’s not a girl, he’s a boy. Nothing can change that. What a stupid mad world we live in, an 11 year old isn’t old enough to make decisions like that. At one time he’d have been told, it’s a phase, it’s your hormones and everything will more than likely settle down, who doesn’t feel mixed up at that age. instead we’re saying to kids, oh you can be a girl if that’s how you feel. It’s pathetic, depressing and wrong.

You're right flamey, it was very difficult to get the prison statistics. But not impossible. Women painstakingly went through every single prison report to get them. And they have been confirmed by the Ministry of Justice.

fairplayforwomen.com/trans_prison_stats_2018/

Can you show me some actual statistics about the violent crime rate committed by transgender people?

I notice you still haven't attempted an answer to what changes when a man identifies as a woman?

I'm not a trans activist but I stand up for all rights and I speak against people who have nothing better to do with their time that to make the world a more dangerous place for others.

Oh the irony! Everything you're advocating is making the world a more dangerous place for others, namely women and girls.

I have a transgender child

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

YABU.

Also fuck your Rosa Parks comparison.

Mumsnetters choose is to actively work to dehumanise and take away the rights of other people who haven't done almost anything bad

Rubbish. What rights could be potentially taken away from trans people?

If you were asking what rights the Scots and UK parliament are currently being lobbied on to remove from women and girls, there's a list of those and yes, absolutely, many women from MN will have written to MPs and gone to meetings about why women's sex based rights should not be removed.

There are no legal rights under threat for trans people. The request to be treated as something you are objectively not via self ID, and to access the resources of that group, is not a right for anyone. With the one exception being the just under 5000 holders in the UK of a Gender Recognition Certificate who have been granted the legal fiction of being the opposite sex.

I have a transgender child

**

The thing is from what I've read on here, the vast majority of people raising concerns around issues like sport genuinely have no problem with trans people, it's just about fairness

Exactly @AryaStarkWolf . Trying to dress these reasonable concerns up as transphobia just alienates.

You do realise that expecting solidarity from "biological women" would get you instantly labelled a transphobe yourself?
flameylife?

As for I don't think reproductive systems make women 'real women' because that's what misogynists think! what are you on about? A woman is simply a female body with any personality; not any body with a 'female personality'.

Recognizing that it's our sex that makes us women isn't misogynist. It's misogynist to say being a woman is a costume or a feeling in a man's head.

No one is trying to take away anyone's rights by maintaining single-sex competition. It isn't a right to be part of a private competition at all, it certainly isn't a right to compete in a sport as the sex of your choice or to compete without meeting the standards set by the organization holding it. No one has the right to compete, the organization is charge decides if someone should have the opportunity if they keep to certain standards.

I can see the argument for mixed-sex competition in many sports, especially for kids, but having 'females and feminine males' as a competition class doesn't make sense - it's a weak standard. It's interesting how a pretty child skater is being used as a puppet for this by people who aren't even in the sport. I guess it was harder to find a "quintessentially female" transwoman when it was the International Powerlifting Federation that chose to keep to the single-sex standard, and the vast majority of the communities of Powerlifters and those who use similar training - across ideologies, it certainly is not viewed as a feminist issue to support single-sex there - supported it. I guess when you're biggest names can't tie their shoelaces due to back injuries, it's a bit more obvious the risks of mixed-sex competition.

Other sports deserve the same respect in keeping the single-sex standard, even if people want to fight for more mixed-sex option or trans classes (or for them to be included in the modified lifters, as has been suggested by some). We can have more options for sports, and still recognize competitions aren't a right and the single-sex standard in many sports if the safest option which gives the best possible training opportunities for girls and women.