AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

ICanWearMyBoobsUpOrDown some years ago a mother in your position came to seek help from the regulars on Feminism Chat. She stayed posting regularly for many months.

We found her resources to best support her DC. Information about the long term effects of the medications, about detransitioners and other stuff she found useful whether for herself or to share with her DC

She was determined not to lie to her child that sex changes were possible and to steer well clear of puberty blockers and hormones. She'd looked into them and was sure they were not in her DC's interests.

She had joined Mermaids as the obvious thing to do but was horrified by what she found. The other parents spent meetings sharing details of how to obtain medication from websites or unscrupulous private doctors. When she left she was pursued by other members saying that her DC would commit suicide and it would be her own fault.

She shared this on MN only for several Mermaids members to sign up specifically to pursue her onto the board. Their behaviour made it clear that she was not exaggerating the issues she had with the group.

She too was paying out money she couldn't afford for private therapy. She was very angry at the weaponizing of very dodgy suicide stats by Mermaids and the misrepresenting of puberty blockers as a harmless pause.

There are a range of motivations behind an expressed desire to be the opposite sex, ranging from autism spectrum disorder, PTSD, internalised homophobia and misogyny, abuse of various sorts and family issues. You sometimes get a child expressing dysphoria as a reaction to the death of an opposite sex sibling. And, sadly, sometimes parents would prefer a trans daughter to a gay son.

These days MH professionals are being taught that any exploration of the other factors that might be driving gender issues is considered conversion therapy and is a BAD THING. I knew this was happening but actually met a woman last week whose DD, a trainee psychiatrist, had been very disturbed by this while working for CAMHS. So you're probably doing the right thing by going private. You may want to make sure the therapist is looking at all the potential issues. For instance I know being a lesbian is very uncool now, but become a transman and you're suddenly extremely popular..

How is it that people like the OP have become so woke that they read much of the comments on here and perceive them as bigoted?! How can they not see the damage that is being done to children?

As the years go by more and more young children are becoming trans. Do the woke think that for decades and decades people just didn't say anything? Why now all of a sudden are there so many? Is it not entirely obvious to them that perhaps because children learn from adults that all that is happening is that children believe from the woke adults that this must be how they are, not female but male and vice versa?

When my daughter was 3 and thought she was a dog, whilst we let her have her fun, she knew, because we taught her that she was a person and not a dog. If we told her that she was a dog, at that point in time she probably would have believed us or at least taken the dog craze more seriously. Surely good parenting is teaching children to question things, whilst also laying out the facts. How many trans children (who are just feminine or tom boys) must there be before there is an outright scandal?

Do we have to sacrifice the many tom boy girls and feminine boys for the few genuine trans? What the hell happened to "wait and see"? You go to the doctor with what you think is a chest infection and are told wait and see, why the hell are so many people pushing children into trans without waiting to see?

Sorry not on topic at all.

SoupDragon8
Look at the England Men's rugby team.
Look at the England Woman's rugby team.

OK! Let's compare the front rows, which is where the vast majority of weight and strength is concentrated, along with a lot of the injury risk from scrummages collapsing etc.

ENGLAND MEN
Mako Vunipola: Height: 5’ 9”; Weight: 121kg (19st)
Jamie George: Height: 6’ (183cm); Weight: 113kg (17st 11lbs)
Kyle Sinckler: Height: 6’ (183cm); Weight: 113kg (17st 8lbs)

TOTAL WEIGHT OF 347kg (54st 6lbs)

--------

ENGLAND WOMEN
Sarah Bern: Height: 5’ 6” (167cm); Weight: 82kg (14st 1lbs)
Amy Cockayne: Height: 5’ 4” (167cm); Weight: 82kg (12st 9lbs)
Hannah Botterman: Height: 5’ 2” (158cm); Weight: 98kg (15st 4lbs)

TOTAL WEIGHT OF 262kg (41st 2lbs)

--------
That is a 85kg (13st 3lb) difference, not to mention the male front row being markedly taller than the female one.

--------

OP, tell us again why this is right and fair and safe?
I mean, the players may not be as little or cute or girly as your skater, but they are still women who deserve to play their sport safely, aren't they?

colourlessgreenidea - because that how it is these days isn’t it? We are drilled bit to misgender or make assumptions.

I very rarely wear a skirt and don’t think my sister actually owns one.

I never felt like I fit in and I would have thought THAT was the reason. (It's not, I'm just weird!)

Having read your post, @AtlasCloud, I find myself wondering if you might have ASD. I have just been diagnosed with ASD and, like you, I've always been weird. Women mask it far better than men and we are seldom diagnosed.

It was reading something about someone else here on Mumsnet that first alerted me to the possibility. Maybe the same will be true for you.

Nobody is saying that MtF trans people cannot compete in sport - but they do not meet the qualification criteria for girls/women’s sport.

Just like I don’t meet the qualification criteria to compete in the Women’s Olympic 5000m - I am not fast enough. It doesn’t mean I can’t compete at all, I just need to enter a race that I do qualify for (ie an amateur 5k/parkrun etc). I still won’t win, as I’m slow - but I’ll be faster than some people, and I will still be competing.

Men, however they identify, have no right to compete in women’s races. If transitioning weakens them physically then, like me being naturally slow, they need to find the right level of competition and compete there.

Transwomen have the right to compete in events that they qualify for. They should not have the right to be women’s world/Olympic/national/any level champion, just because they “feel like a woman”.

This isn’t hate OP, it is protection of women’s and girls rights to have our own, protected, category in sports.

just wonder what we will think in 20 years time and what damage we'll have done in those 20 years...

I'm far more concerned about the larger population of girls who will have been discouraged by being beaten by boys and adolescent males from sporting careers. It has to be one rule that applies over all sports. Its simply unfair to let males compete against girls because at some stage puberty catches up and there is a huge strength difference.

I'm also concerned that the individual in question, if allowed to compete as a girl now, will suffer more if then disallowed later in life, or if encouraged to take action to allow her to compete as a female before she is mentally mature enough to process it properly in her own mind.

I'm further concerned that certain people use those with these types of issues as a tool by which to pursue their own obsessive ideology on the issue.

There's a bus. It's end destination is the best university in the world,. The likelihood is that by travelling there you will be set for life. An incredible career, amazing opportunities of world travel, fame, money.

There is an upstairs and a downstairs to the bus. The upstairs has lots of seats but reserved for men only. Women can sit downstairs, but there are less seats due to luggage racks,the door and the driver's cabin.

The seats are full every day, only those who are top of their field can enter.

When a biological man gets on the bus, and finds he's not able to sit at the top - he then goes downstairs and tells a woman to get out of his seat because he feels like a woman.

He is not Rosa Parks.

Rosa Parks is the woman who tells him loudly and publicly that she knows he might feel entitled to her chair, but she's not getting up.

I'm just astonished OP that you can't see that?

For instance I know being a lesbian is very uncool now, but become a transman and you're suddenly extremely popular..

Alongside all the trans inclusive training in schools, there needs be just as much time devoted to the side effects.

Eg of puberty blockers. Including the latest research and the effect on IQ. The fact that they create prepubescent genitalia in adults. And there is too little material to create anything resembling adult genitals.

The resulting infertility, lack of sex life, including the near certainty of never having an orgasm, being a medical patient until the end of your life, and the possibility of multiple surgeries, many of which are virtually ineffective, like phalloplasty.

And the statistics showing the mental health outcome after surgery.

I suspect being a transman will lose its edgy, cool reputation. Support for gender nonconforming children, who reject their sex will revert to a mental health issue which is treated accordingly.

Sad thing is when I see a little girl in trousers as part of the school uniform I wonder ‘does she think she is a boy?’.

That's just weird. My DD (15) wears trousers all the time, she prefers them. It never crossed my mind to think she might be a boy... clothes don't define who we are.

And to top it off until around age 6, my DS had an alter ego "Emily" . It was a game my DC played. Again, I never really questioned if he might bea girl / transgender.

The point I am trying to make is, it really does not matter what is (or isn't) dangling between the legs. What matters is that children can express themselves and learn to be comfortable with their bodies & minds. They should find acceptance for who they are based on personality nothing else.

I agree @Cassort but Mumsnet is where the transphobes organise from so not gonna get many people agreeing with you. Good luck

What about trans men op? If they are forced to compete in the men's category then they will not succeed at all, because of their natal sex. That means insisting that transwomen compete as women directly creates an unfairness to transmen. Or should all transmen give up on competitive sport? The only option I can foresee is three categories: mens, womens and gender-free

I'm a huge skating fan. Letting a transgirl compete with biological girls would bei an outrageous injustice. The physical advantages of biological males when it comes to skating are bigger than just better muscle-weight-ratio and bigger lung capacity. Males have a lower center of gravity as well which helps with the jumps. Males and females are basically allowed to so the same elements with the same basis score, yet at the last World Championship, the male winner Nathan Chen earned in the free programm 121,24 points for his elements while the female champion Alina Zagitova got "only" 81,16 points for her elements. I' m sick of people who treat females as subclass humans whose rights have always to give way and whose feelings are never worth any consideration.

but Mumsnet is where the transphobes organise from so not gonna get many people agreeing with you. Good luck

What, all 15 million of them? 😀

You might want to look at the ratio here.

Mumsnet is where the transphobes organise

Bollox. Your paranoia is no excuse for disengaging from the discussion the OP started.

I agree @Cassort but Mumsnet is where the transphobes organise from so not gonna get many people agreeing with you. Good luck wink

Yeah, it’s one massive grooming cult where stupid women do indefensible things like discussing facts and defending their sex-based rights.

The pathetic cries of ‘waah waah’ transphobia always come to naught when the complainee is challenged to provide evidence of such comments.

Great analogy @Cassort

The only thing I would say is that it’s more like 3/4 of the bus reserved for men.

And the bus doesn’t stop. It just slows down a touch at stops and only the fastest and most agile sprinters can catch it. And thus it is constantly filled with men.

How anyone cannot see this for the truth it is quite frankly astonished men.

Women- of all colours and creeds are nearly 50% of the population but are made to take up 1/4 of the space in society. And it took us a bloody long time to get that much.

Now we are told that it is a total privilege and makes us the oppressors- by the people who take up the other 3/4.

I see flameylife is another one experiencing ridiculous cognitive dissonance.

One one hand: "here be transphobes, let men be women!!"
On the other [sic]: "Feeling pregnant and especially vulnerable to harassment"

Why don't you just identify out of being a pregnant woman flamey?

Problem solved!

instead campaigned to change the clothing rules in the male category and for the male child to have his preferred pronouns respected?

Indeed - you might think that ...

But God forbid that MEN should have to change their definition of what it is to be a masculine manly man.

Leave all that emotional labour to women. After all, it's what they're good at. That's what being a woman is, isn't it?

I see flameylife is another one experiencing ridiculous cognitive dissonance.

One one hand: "here be transphobes, let men be women!!"
On the other [sic]: "Feeling pregnant and especially vulnerable to harassment"

Why don't you just identify out of being a pregnant woman flamey?
Problem solved!

😂😂😂😂

Biology’s a fucker, isn’t it?

No, absolutely not, for a number of reasons.

1, the obvious biological reasons. I have an 11 yo DS and I’m starting to see the physiological changes already. 11 is ther verge of puberty, and when that hits the physical advantage will become huge, almost over night.

2, What about if this child changes their mind? Embedding these gender changes will make it much more difficult for them to be able to go back if they want to. Who hasn’t started a thing, then felt under pressure to continue, even though they no longer want to?It’s magnified 100x for a tween/teen.Also there’s the possibility of what this gender change will lead to.

3, It’s much more likely that a tween/teen will want to take a medical rout if all around them are affirming their new identity and cheering them on, and the medical rout, which will mean sterilization; loss of sexual function before it’s even begun; bone density issues, which are hardly conducive to sporting participation; psychological problems; cognitive impairment; then all the health issues involved with taking hormones, and finally major multiple surgeries, is not a path we should be ushering any child along. Why would anybody encourage a talented young skater to piss their potential up the wall like that, on something they’ll more than likely grow out of if encouraged to present how they like but left to their own devices without all this brave and stunning nonsense.

4, The female category should be for females, not females and any male who fancies it. Males have a category of their own, they should compete in that or not at all.There’s no fairness if it’s fair for 1 but unfair for everyone else. There’s no fairness if it’s not fair for all, and this child has a category available to them that is fair for them and for everyone else.

@NottonightJosepheen you'd think feminists only ever read the FWR posts and never venture onto any other topics from way some OPs say they "don't dare" post on FWR. Feminists: we lurk everywhere you know Some of us even have names just for FWR

I struggle to see how there could be a gender free category? Because all that would happen is biological men (who have no interest in transgender rights) would compete in that category - and then there are essentially 2 bio male categories and one bio female.

@Allergictoironing
I think most people are aware of names that can be used for both sexes.
I was trying to point out that if the parents really wanted their child to compete they would have changed name.
I think they have other motives.