AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

Surely it would be better for the child, the sport and other children if instead of the parents pushing for this male child to be allowed to compete in female categories they instead campaigned to change the clothing rules in the male category and for the male child to have his preferred pronouns respected?

I'm happy to support male competitors in male sports who want to wear a dress and be called a traditionally female name.

I will not support male competitors entering female sports as this is gaining an unfair advantage and putting women at risk of injury.

I wold suggest that if a girl or woman finds that a male-bodied person is competing against her, she announces immediately that she identifies as the winner and therefore IS the winner.

If they're going to compete in the women's category you may as well not have a women's category.

The point of having a 'women's category' is because women are physically different from men e.g. weaker, musculature shorter, wider hipped, more fat, etc. If we allow people who are physically 'men' to compete, then this is no longer true.

We need to move away from gender stereotypes and allow people to appear as whatever gender they choose to present. But this does not change their fundamental physicality and should not change the 'sex' group they compete in.

I suppose the opposition is to them competing in sports, rather than them being transgender, so maybe the parents are setting them up for a lifetime of battling.
I guess someone has to stand up and not move seats on the bus though for things to change

The issue is (certainly in sports) allowing Trans women to compete against women is then putting women at a disadvantage to accommodate trans women. Womens sport are still struggling to be taken seriously, allowing trans women compete is just going to wipe womens sports out. Comparing this situation to racism is very unfair. White people weren't being screwed over when black people were given proper human rights

Have any of you tried to get help for a child who feels as though they are the wrong sex?

You go to the doctors, get referred for counselling which is pretty much a quick affirmation then referred to a clinic where they will only offer any meaningful help if you go down the route of blockers.

What can you do if your child is depressed, self harming, and hates themselves and professionals won't help?

In some cases it is about the parents wanting attention.

In a lot of cases it isn't, and it isn't abusive, and I'm very angry at the suggestion that it's abuse.

I love my child, I see my child in pain every day, and, although we haven't gone down the route of blockers as yet, I can absolutely see why desperate parents do go down that route in order to get help.

I've had to pay for private counselling, I'm up to my eyes in debt because there have been times I've had to prioritise my childs mental health over paying my bills.

I am not an abusive parent, I am a loving parent who just wants the best for my child who is struggling through a battle I will never understand.

If, in the future, my child does go down the route to become the sex they wish to be they will 100% have earned the right to be respected as the person they want to be, and those who are tarnishing people like my child with the same brush as the attention seekers and the people who are using this for their own purposes have not got one single clue what this daily battle is like.

Too trans to get support from one group, not trans enough to get support from another. It's beyond fucked up.

Whilst the child is prepubescent then yes, it's pretty much a level playing field.
Once puberty hits? No unless the child is taking puberty blockers and female hormones.

looking or feeling like a woman does not mean you are a woman.

Being a woman is not a choice.

Present as whatever gender you like, then compete in right category for your sex.

Men who want to be women can trans/dress how they like and compete in the male category, what 's wrong with that? We should maybe force male athletes to accept that some men come dressed/presenting as women.

Doesn't actually make then women though, or qualify them to join the women's category.

I have no with transgender people in general. However I think you then just have to accept that that means you don't get to compete in sex segregated sports as your chosen gender. I have accepted that my biology means I don't get to be a fashion model or compete in anything designed for BAME participants, and I don't see why this should be any different.

I think she should be allowed to compete as she is pre puberty. At this age there isn't a huge amount of difference between the abilities of young boys and girls. Post puberty is a different matter. If she receives drugs which block puberty and changes sex officially, then that has to be looked at afresh

Genetics gives advantages in everything. The tall kid. The fast kid. The fat kid. The slow kid.
Someone is going to have an advantage somehow. And I just don't feel that if that advantage is that they are genetically male, while quintessentially female, that it's any different than putting all the shorties competing together and all the fatties together

You seriously believe that?

RIP women's sport

One of the child's fathers is their coach. They came 2nd in regionals allowing them to compete in the nationals on 22nd March - not having been notified the dads went to court.
Maria was excluded from the official photos, did not get a warm-up before competing and according to minutes of meeting which were overturned eventually was banned from using girls' bathroom.

A mixed tournament would have prevented this but as I have said previously I do think sports should be binary. All that said, if you are going to allow a trans rollerskater to compete then excluding them from photos and warm-ups would seem petty.
I am not sure running order should have knocked their confidence/hobbled their performance as badly as it did though.

Just to clarify, as there was a mistake earlier, XY is male, XX is female.
I think sports selection should be based on chromosomes.
It is very simple.
Chromosome abnormalities in terms of sex are very, very rare.
Y means male.
Recently a columnist in the evening standard newspaper got this wrong. It is basic science and given the amount of discussion in recent years nobody should be confused. Particularly journalists.

If we are purely talking about sport specifically then no, trans athletes should not be competing in women's sporting events because they have the unfair advantage of muscular and lung development that biological females don't have and cannot hope to compete with - regardless of whether later in life they reduce their testosterone levels and take female hormones. It isn't fair - that is the truth. If that wasn't the case then I suspect people would have no problem with it, but to disregard the facts in favour of not hurting people's feelings is crazy - what about women's feelings? How must it feel for a woman to come second in a race to a transgender athlete with male physical advantages knowing that she would otherwise have come first - can you imagine the how unjust and frustrating that would feel? And if I was a female athlete I would be wondering what was the point of competing at all. There is no answer to this problem where somebody won't feel wronged.

They may he pre puberty but the other girls in the category might not be. So they will already be at a disadvantage having to miss training or whatever through periods etc

The other girls will all have that eventually so it will even out amongst the girls.

But this kid already is able to train more than many of the others will be.

And puberty isnt an over night thing. Its gradual. By the time you notice it it's being going on a while.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

Yabvu. Womens sports are for women. Women have been able to compete for less than a century and you want to take those limited opportunities away from girls.

Implying that women are somehow threatening to you for opposing your ridiculous agenda is also unreasonable.

Question for OP

Would you think it is fair for a Heavy Weight Boxer to fight in the light weight division?

It is the same in terms of physical disparity with male and female athletes.

But this child isn't a man or a woman, you can argue about if they are a boy or a girl or male or female but at 11 they aren't a man or a woman.

Ican

That sounds very tough for you and your child.

But I would hope that any counsellor worth their salt would be helping your child to come to terms with the fact that he or she will never be able to change sex. If anyone says otherwise, they are lying to your child.

And if your child is self-harming and has been diagnosed with depression, I would definitely go back to the GP and push for a referral for therapy to support your child’s mental health.

If, in the future, my child does go down the route to become the sex they wish to be they will 100% have earned the right to be respected as the person they want to be of course. Everyone deserves respect. But what they will NOT have earned is a right to women's sports and single sex places.

The South American Skating Confederation allows skaters to compete as women if they have a female name on their official ID, which Maria doesn't. So what about names like:

Vivian
Leslie/Lesley
Adrian
Jamie
Sasha
Kim
Ashley
Billie/Billy (I know a M/F couple both named Billy/Billie)
Lindsey

Given that the drugs needed will cause awful side effects and permanent damage, reduced life expectancy, it really is a massive decision.
I was friendly with a m to f person who died recently at 40 from a massive stroke. The doctors' opinion was that this was a direct result of the hormones she was taking. So sad for her and her friends and family.

Your dc can never ever have that. If they can come to terms with that then hopefully they will live a happy and fulfilled life.

None of us would be allowed to compete in this competition, because were too old (or too unco-ordinated in my case!). We have to compete in the category designed for us so as not to get an unfair advantage

If you turn it on it's head and have adults saying they should be allowed to compete in children's competitions "because it's just biology, it doesn't count" then everyone could see why this shouldn't be allowed.

They may he pre puberty but the other girls in the category might not be. So they will already be at a disadvantage having to miss training or whatever through periods etc I thought puberty gave you an advantage, made you bigger stronger etc although a bigger difference for the boys.

Do athletes really miss training because of periods? What happens if your event in the Olympics is the "wrong" week?

Maybe we need menstruating and non menstruating events.

Would you think it is fair for a Heavy Weight Boxer to fight in the light weight division? I guess the fair comparison to someone changing gender would be "Is it fair for someone who used to be a Heavy Weight Boxer but has dieted and is now the weight for the light weight division to compete as a light weight."

Obviously that would be if the transgender person was on testosterone blockers or taking appropriate hormones.