AIBU to think that this child should be allowed to compete as a girl? Transgender topic.

[Cassort]

www.bbc.co.uk/news/video_and_audio/headlines/48800075/transgender-skater-fighting-to-compete?ocid=socialflow_facebook&ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbcnews&ns_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR3SHOZZproHs8lkaYi9tz5VcKPnE9xQRt7AR8m8rRPu5lPTJkp1m1808Os

It's an 11 year old (born male) ice skater. There's a little video where to me she looks female.

I daren't put this on the feminism board, but AIBU to think that in 20 years time we will look back in shame at how we have treated transgendered individuals?

I just put myself in those shoes for 5 hours. What on earth would I think? How much hate would I feel? How fucked up/strange/weird would I feel?

I have a very uneasy feeling in my soul about the vociferous opposition to transgenderism on MN currently. It doesn't sit comfortably with me.

I came across this story just now and it's typical of I suppose what the feminist MNers want transgender people to face. I.e. that they can't...

Should she compete as a girl? Or AIBU?

I wonder if a young boy would rather be a straight female than a gay man.

I wonder if this boy's parents would rather have a straight daughter than a gay son.

The child probably just wants to skate and wear pretty clothes, and if he'd been told boys can do that too, there wouldn't be a problem.

I wonder if all the OP will take from this thread is, “All these mumsnetters are SO MEAN - they want to STOP this pretty little boy who looks like a girl from SKATING!!”

Except is isn't. It should be but, as yet, it still isn't. Not without ridicule and bullying.

You're right, and that's what people should be putting their effort into. True 'acceptance without exception'.
Similar pertains for gay girls who can go from shame and ridicule as 'lezzers' to lauded, 'transboys'.

All 11y old boys look quite androgenous and feminine untill they go through puberty. I've watched several transform from delicate, petite, fine featured slim boys into wide shouldered men with facial hair and pecs before my eyes in a couple of years. They are significantly stronger than me by 14 and I am quite strong. Anyone going or gone through male puberty must compete in the male sex class.

If a child hasnt gone through puberty then I suppose its ok for them to compete as female ice skaters, and I guess this child will probably be put on hormone blockers to prevent puberty, but that's abuse in my opinion.

What would be much better, for me, is if male ice skaters cpukd compete in their biological class wearing the frilly tutus and doing the female moves, if they so wished.

I know someone who transitioned from a petite boy in their early 20s and then played competitive women's hockey at quite a high level. They had to stop eventually when, after years of brutal injuries inflicted on the unsuspecting opposition, they smashed a 19y old girls shin to pieces and the authorities got involved. My son, who is himself pretty weedy and hates running, beat the school star female runner who competes at county level in the mixed cross country this year at sports day for the first time ever in Y7. She came first, by miles, throughout primary school. She was beaten by over half the boys this year. Biology is biology. Biological males that have or are experiencing male puberty should not compete with biological females in stamina, strength or power events. Its wrong.

@Cassort - I can see why it might be less unfair to allow prepubescent boys to compete against prepubescent girls - they haven't gone through puberty and got the biological advantages that this confers - muscle mass, strength, bone density, endurance.

But in the long term, unless this boy goes on puberty blockers (a whole other can of worms, with all the potential problems this will cause him), he will go through puberty and get all the advantages, and then it will not be fair for him to compete against the girls - he will be able to do quad jumps, where they can only do triples, and that boosts his score, so is unfair.

So is it right to let him compete as a girl now, only to say that he can't in the future, unless he medically (and possibly surgically too) alters his body? I don't think so.

You are afraid that, in years to come we will look back in shame at how we treated trans gender people. I am afraid that we will look back in shame at how we gave away the safety and hard won rights of biological women, to appease the most vocal trans activists.

My sister was the ultimate Tom boy.

Today she would have been whisked off by the unicorn brigade (except my parents weren’t crazy and let her have short hair and bough her ‘boy’ clothes and toys).

The difference a short space of time is quite frightening.

One of my 16-year-old twins was a tomboy like your sister for the first 5 years of her life. No one commented on it (unless they were laughing with me at the latest escapade).

I have a 4-year-old who is exactly the same. Full on tomboy. I’ve already had two friends comment that maybe she is a boy. She’s not a boy, she’s 4. Last week she cried for 20 minutes when she found out you can’t marry dolphins.

It’s quite staggering to think if she expressed at 4 that she thought she was a boy that I’d get support from people in going down the medical route that would irreversibly change her life forever, yet I’d quite rightly be castigated if I let her decide that she was old enough to cross a road by herself. Frightening.

I feel sorry for this boy. He's been told that he can change sex.

Why can't his parents let him grow up as a feminine presenting boy? If he wants to wear pretty clothes and have long hair, why not? But the adults around him should stop lying to him and stop telling him that these things make him a girl.

I also had a 'tomboy, want to be like George from the Famous Five' phase and yes, I worry about what would have happened if the trans culture had been a thing then.

I also read the other day, that I think they are re-writing the Famous Five books with George being a transboy in them.

OP YABU, he is not a girl, and therefore should not compete as one, what happens when he goes through puberty and his testosterone, increased muscle mass, longer limbs, greater lung capacity etc all develop? He would trounce any other female competitor, he would be faster, stronger, be able to jump higher. Totally unfair.

Instead of being told he is a girl, he should be allowed to a feminine boy and accepted as such. Not told he can change sex. Over 80% of 'trans' children desist with the watch and wait method. Affirmation as a treatment model is abusive.

I wore “boy’s” clothes when I about 11. There were 2 reasons:

• my parents had fuck all money and I lied that I hated girlie shoes so that they didn’t feel bad about me only ever getting hand me down shoes from my brother
• I had no “pretty” clothes (see above) and no joy of “dressing nicely”, and lacked confidence in wearing “the right thing” - so it was just easier to persuade myself that I only liked jeans and t shirts.

I think it’s so important to support transgender children, but I’m so glad no-one was pushing me, in the 60s/70s to consider whether I was a boy.

As for the sports... these news stories shared on MN always seem to be born males wanting to compete in female category, where they often have a physical advantage. I don’t follow every thread so apologies if I’m wrong, but I don’t recall seeing a story on here about born females wanting to switch to a male category they won’t even qualify for.

nolongersurprised you are probably right!

And in 20 years time, it will be more on the lines of: "... why did the parents allow to have their children take hormone suppressants & become sexless individuals by removing identifying body parts? "
And the children, will have a lifetime of resentment towards said parents, being F*ed up in the head needing a lifetime of hormone treatments and therapy on every level.
As for the little boy in question, what's wrong with him joining other boys? At this point in time, he is a boy, with male attributes, nothing wrong with that. Parents should support him, but sport is not about winning trophies at any cost. It's about enjoyment. A good & valuable lesson to learn.

Pre puberty does it matter? My GS plays football, there are girls on the team, they play all girl teams and all boy teams as well as mixed teams.

Do boys have an advantage from birth? I don't know but I do know if I look at GSs class the girls on average look bigger stronger and I assume that is because girls start puberty earlier. Possibly the best player on his team, fastest and technically very good I'm told as I'm no judge, is female.

So I'm just asking does this child have an advantage or is it that they will have an advantage one day? I genuinely don't know.

Oh and in 20 years' time i'd hazard a guess and say there will be a growing list of lawsuits against those who issued puberty blockers and then cross sex hormones to young people who should have been left well alone or had counselling, and who instead will likely be infertile, have little to no libido, as well as the possibility of reduced IQ, reduced bone density and god knows what else.

Being a female, and competing as a female, has nothing to do with how you look. It only relates to biology.
Ask yourself why you're so willing to throw out the chances of all the young girls out there and in the future, in favour of males who try to "look female" (whatever that means - sounds like sexist stereotypes). Ask yourself why you care so little about females.

Spain had a male rhythmic gymnastics championship.

My dd has played football with and against boys since she was 6. From 6-9 there was very little physical difference and often she was the star on the pitch, faster, more stamina, powerful. Then from 10 some boys suddenly started to get faster and stronger. From 12 some of the boys look like men, at 13 some are still tiny and some are 6 foot with acne and facial hair and huge. Now I worry about her in tackles.

Her physical shape has more or less stayed the same except she's taller and possibly slightly more athletic.

I have a younger male relative who, as a child, like makeup and "girl" things. He has flirted with drag as a teenager and student. He is now a grown man in a loving long term relationship with another grown man. Should he have been forced down the route of being trans rather than a gay man? Which is who he is.

I wonder if this boy's parents would rather have a straight daughter than a gay son

I doubt that, given that if my Spanish is correct, they are a gay couple who adopted Maria along with two boys. The pastor of the children's home insisted she was trans 'because of her long hair'. The gay couple initially thought João was a gay child.
Not sure what made them change their mind.

People will look back and say why did we allow our children to damage their bodies in the pursuit of something that is not possible.

This child as everyone has said is prepubescent and there is no reason why they can't compete with girls at the moment. But they have to be prepared for the future and realities explained. Young children can experiment and be tomboys or girls, why not. But when they grow into adults reality is reality. Allowing children to physically harm themselves permenantly is cruelty in my opinion.

Link: (Spanish) Pastor Nathaniel seems a bit close-minded
revistaladoa.com.br/2017/11/curitiba/casal-gay-adota-menina-transgenero-seus-dois-irmaos-em-curitiba/

Sorry, not two boys - they adopted Maria and their brother and sister.

For me the real question is - why are children’s sports sex segregated?

During and post puberty it is obvious why we have sports segregation. Male bodies are (on average/at the upper end etc) stronger and faster and bigger than female bodies. If the sexes were mixed women would hardly ever win anything and could be injured in some sports.

But pre puberty I don’t know if that is the case. Presumably there is data on this. If age 11 male bodies and female bodies are statistically not very different in size and strength then surely the answer is that age 11 sports do not need to be segregated. (Rather than allowing a boy to compete in the girls’ section). Perhaps 11 is too old though as of course puberty can begin from 8/9. The data will show when the biological differences in strength etc kick in.

My point is that we should always be asking ourselves WHY males and females have been separated - for sport, for changing, for sleeping accommodation, for toilets, for medical treatment etc. If there is a reason based on biological physical differences or sexual safety then you cannot allow a biological male to be included in the female category. If however there is no such reason then of course you can.

If this child was age 5 there would be no question that he should be allowed to join the girls, indeed I would question why there were girls and boys’ teams at all. Age 21 it would be clear he should not as his strength would allow him to perform tricks, speed etc that females could not. Age 11 is borderline.

You obviously know nothing about figure skating, or you'd know it would be completely unfair to the girls for this child to compete against them.

If someone has a Y chromosome, their sex is male. That still applies if they have surgery down below (most transwomen do not and are still intact males). Even if they take hormones and change the type of clothes they wear.