Stormzy AIBU

[MissChananderlerbong]

Prepared to be told I'm being old and boring.
I enjoyed Stormzy's set, he's obviously a progressive liberal guy, and he seems like a good human.
So why the sexist lyrics?
"Finish on her face to top it off (ay)"
"If her friend is a dead ting, take one for the bredren"
"2 peng tings at the entrance" (just feels wrong calling women 'things')
If he was just another artist then fine, but he seems so principled in so many other ways. So I find this odd.

As people have mentioned Billie Eilish has dodgy lyrics

The lyrics quoted weren't dodgy. "I wish you were gay" - meaning I can't even explain your lack of interest in me by thinking you're gay, you're just not interested. At least if you were gay I could keep my pride. That isn't remotely like a man accusing a woman of being a lesbian because she doesn't want to have sex with him, it's the opposite. God it's a dreary song!

I don’t think any man should sing songs that are offensive to women. I don’t think a man should use the word ‘slut’ etc.

I don’t think it’s the same if women sing them (and have wrote them), just like it’s not the same as black people using the N word.

Yes women shut up, because culture, because identity, because mens feelings, because the integrity of the music. And if that is true then it should be across the board so homophobic lyrics are fine, racist lyrics are fine. Let's crack on

And context. Let's not forget context.

If someone comes out with a racist slur, do we say, “Ooh noo....it’s ok that they said that because they’re from a particular ethnicity / background / demographic.” Or do we say, “It ok because it’s performance.” No we do not. We call them out in it. No excuses.

Re this, we very much do differentiate between white people using the N word and black people using the N word, because for many black people that word has been reclaimed as a symbol of power and resilience and it’s very obviously not the job of white people to tell blacks people how they are allowed to use the words we once used to oppress them.

I groggily listened to his Glasto performance on the BBC Today programme this morning.
Got really excited cos I thought that they were talking about Banksy..
Realised my mistake, groaned, and went back to sleep.

TBH I've gone right off Pharrell Williams now I've discovered he wrote those horrible lyrics. :( FFS

If I was analysing the lyrics as a poem ...

'Not that deep' by Stormzy is a comment on youth culture and blame. He is trying to say that it is not 'your postcode' that makes you bad, but you yourself.
The lines

'I got caught with a slut in the club
Tell my girl it's not that deep'

Highlight the blame culture we are living in - how could a man possibly be to blame for cheating - it must be the fault of the woman. Stormzy is using misogynistic stereotypes to convey his message that we are responsible for our own actions.

So ... I don't approve of the word slut but is it used to highlight misogyny?

pull the other one it has bells on.

What about Shaggy's It Wasn't Me? Was that highlighting the blame culture we live in?

@Juells you keep on sticking in the grin emoji as though it’s a substitute for actually responding to a nuanced point. I get that you’re trying to convey the idea that these arguments aren’t worth anything but derision but some of them are actually well made and worth consideration, and your responses just make it look like you cant think of anything better to say.

juells you didn’t answer my question. Do you not believe in white privilege? I specifically am asking you because of one of your earlier posts.

“perpetuating a double standard whereby you object to the apparent misogyny of black men but not the misogyny of white men.”

Well I don’t analyse the lyrics if Ed Sheehan or Stormzy - most of the time it’s just on in the background on the radio. But you can generally hear the word “slut” if it’s not bleeped out.

Just like on that song by Justin Bieber, “You can go and f* yourself.” They changed the lyric for the radio, because if it had been left to stand, people would have heard it and complained.

I’ve never listened closely enough to Ed Sheeran’s lyrics to form an opinion. I have heard people complain about him singing about the “shape of you” or whatever. That doesn’t bother me. It wouldn’t bother me if a black singer or rapper sang about the “shape of you” either. A woman could sing that about a man. If it was “the shape of the slut”, that would obviously be a different matter. As to the other Ed Sheehan lyric quoted earlier, a woman could write lyrics about a man, “do you have a history of leading girls on?” This is not the same as directly using the word “slut” which is a direct insult and leaves no room for interpretation or context.

As I said earlier, if a man shouted slut at me in the street, do you think I’d care if he was white or black? Really? It’s the fact it’s coming from a man that would affect me.

There have been several separate threads about Ed Sheerens dodgy lyrics in the past. There was certainly one after the last Glastonbury. That's how I became aware of it.

Bloody hell.

"Finish on her face to top it off (ay)"

Oh yuk! What an animal.

Plus, this is not an “either, or” situation. Misogyny comes in many forms - obviously . If I hear misogyny in any kind of music or in the media, I think the same. Today we just happen to be talking about this particular artist in the wake of his performance yesterday. If you want to point out misogyny in other songs, I wouldn’t disagree with you. But if someone was blatantly racist, would you say we shouldn’t challenge it because, after all, there are other more subtle forms of racism as well? That doesn’t make sense.

Juelles comparing Shaggy and Stormzy is like comparing candy floss with a steak. Completely different functions and places (as well as time)

It is an old debate about the world of hip-hop/rap.

The lyrics are a reflection of the world they portray. They are spoken by characters drawn by the artist.

This theory was debunked back in the 1990s. Some of the arguments against are here: www.independent.co.uk/news/theyre-poisoning-our-kids-1594030.html

I have teen girls and they sometimes listen to rap. It seems to me that they are rightly pc about racism and homophobia but accept lyrics that are demeaning to women, describing them as a ho, bitch(by female rap artists) How is that ok?

@Juells Pharrell Williams is a musical genius. I take a lot of issue with a lot of lyrics and certainly especially that song by Bob Geldof and associates: Do they know it's christmas. I'm half African and can say with certainty we don't need your pity and old shoes. We did know it was Christmas and we celebrated it very well, thanks for your concern.

I haven't listened to rap for years but unless my info is now out of date the hatred is all internalised i.e. towards the same community that produces it. It's sexist sure but the hatred is purely directed at women of colour. Likewise use of the N word is obviously directed at the same people who create the music

The book The Rap on Gangsta Rap (1994) pointed out that: white consumers of this music far outnumber black consumers; the media that promotes this music is overwhelmingly white; and the record companies selling this music are overwhelmingly run and owned by whites.

None of these record companies are asking rappers to record songs showing hatred towards, for example, Asians or gays, mainly because for various reasons such recordings wouldn't make any real money. But hatred towards blacks is highly profitable and can be justified as long as the artists creating it are of the same colour as the people they are insulting.

Hip hop culture, (and grime which has its roots in it) is horribly misogynist. It's sadly my favourite type of music. This is an issue that these young men could be changing, but they choose not to. The conversational way bitch and whore bandied about and the way they profess to view women, (just fannies and tits, out to fleece men) is horrible for me to hear. I'm surprised (and disappointed) that artists like Kid Cudi (who I expect better from) are still choosing to dehumanise women in this way.

This othering of women has such an effect on a young audience, the awfulness with XXXTentacion illustrated that. Charged with kidnapping and viciously assaulting his young female partner in a particularly terrible way, yet his (young) female fans thought he was just misunderstood. Then after he died, many men, (Louis Theroux for eg.) spoke out about what a loss it was, and how spiffing he was. No mention that he was expecting a prison sentence for his disgusting assault.

I love hiphop, grime and most of it's derivatives. Its dinasoar attitude needs to change because either women will become averse to it or may be influenced by it like the XXXTentacion eg I gave above.

Language is powerful, and their incessant, (and used so casually!) insults to women is so fucking insidious.

@Pa1oma I do agree with you there. I do think that he (Stormzy) should not be above criticism just by virtue of being a black man. If your issue is with his misogyny then fair enough. I don't go around calling women sluts and expecting praise for it. But I do think that he is being held to a much higher standard than others and I'm defending him not because I agree with all he says but because I understand the struggle he has gone through and the way he experiences life. Much like a PP said upthread - I don't agree with all he raps but I appreciate what he is and what he represents. If a few middle-aged white feminists take issue with it then so be it. I'm not on their side. I'm on his. It really is a fucking struggle being a young black man. White feminism is the preserve of a few women who get to shout down anyone that doesn't look or sound like them. Fuck that.

I take a lot of issue with a lot of lyrics and certainly especially that song by Bob Geldof and associates: Do they know it's christmas. I'm half African and can say with certainty we don't need your pity and old shoes. We did know it was Christmas and we celebrated it very well, thanks for your concern.

When that record came out I tried to exchange my old shoes for a copy but my local Woolworths weren't having it.

Vladimir - well you have every right to be offended by those lyrics. But equally, other women have the right to be offended by other lyrics. Why not just accept that, rather than tying yourself in knots with whataboutery and deflections in an attempt to excuse the inexcusable? (not you personally, I mean various posters on here).

I don’t even class myself as a “feminist” in the MN sense, Vladimir. In fact, I usually get taken down for it in here. I’m not offended as “white”, as a “middle-aged person” or as a “feminist.” I’m offended as a woman.