‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

[SweetMelodies]

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

OleWomanInAShoe multiples are exempt if one of them is your first or second if they are your 3rd-5th then nope but 2nd-4th or 1st -3rd you can get tax credits it's not even UC for more than 2 children!!
So much wrong with that post. Triplets you would get tax credits for two of them even if they were babies number 10 and 11!
And you can claim UC for more than two dc.

Thinking about it I don’t really understand the argument of ‘why should low income families be able to keep having children whilst the rest of us can only afford a certain amount’

The low income family is being given a payment each month to help cover the basic costs of a baby/child because their income is so low that it would be a struggle to meet these needs. Even with that extra payment their overall income is still probably going to be much lower than the person claiming ‘they can’t afford to have another baby so others shouldn’t get tax credits’.

Everything thank you, I hate this assumption that we have more children for benefits I didn't want anymore I found it so hard first time round I was devastated and even booked an abortion with DS but I couldn't go through with it and why shouldn't my child have siblings? I'm lucky my dad has a lot of money and helps us out, he lives abroad and carries much guilt about missing out on my childhood but luckily this means my kids don't go without and he's even paying for us to go to Disney florida (he lives close) and sends me money which is taken like child maintenance and doesn't effect my benefit claim, he also funds my car but I am lucky many are in my situation and really struggling, it just hurts seeing people judged. My Mil is the type these people judge alcoholic Had many kids but people don't know her father raped beat and terrorised her family growing up. People should have more compassion. Thank you, knowing how hated people like me are in society has destroyed my self confidence even more and made it even less likely I will ever be a functioning member of society.

No, your a snob for your lack of compassion as to the often tragic reasons the people being looked down on in this thread are in that situation for. Saying poor shouldn't have sex. Don't deserve children etc etc. Never known anyone as adored by her many kids as my Mil and she's never worked and is alcohol dependant. They worship the ground she walks on because she loved them and did her best despite being poor and having a horrific abusive childhood and all the issues that can come with that. Think it's you who needs to grow up, your out of touch some of us have been refused sterilisation due to age After two kids and can't use any contraception other than condoms for health reasons. Twice they have failed for me, but nonetheless we get by and I am lucky we have lots of family who look out for each other.

Thinking about it I don’t really understand the argument of ‘why should low income families be able to keep having children whilst the rest of us can only afford a certain amount’
The low income family is being given a payment each month to help cover the basic costs of a baby/child because their income is so low that it would be a struggle to meet these needs

It sounds like you do understand it.

People have to make decisions about their lives based on what they can afford.

As you say, additional benefits by child are help towards costs of having additional children precisely because they would by be able to afford the extra child. Ergo, they can't afford another child (which is a decision many people up and down the country come to without whining that it's their right to have a 3rd / 4th / 5th child).

would by be able to
Would not be able to

Tax credits are just a government subsidy to business that they shouldn't have. They should be scrapped and the minimum wage raised. Then many working families in this country wouldn't be reliant on benefits anymore.

Thinking about it I don’t really understand the argument of ‘why should low income families be able to keep having children whilst the rest of us can only afford a certain amount’

The low income family is being given a payment each month to help cover the basic costs of a baby/child because their income is so low that it would be a struggle to meet these needs. Even with that extra payment their overall income is still probably going to be much lower than the person claiming ‘they can’t afford to have another baby so others shouldn’t get tax credits’.

Yeah, wouldn't it be so much better if benefits were reserved as an actual safety net so that the people who actually need it can meet their basic needs, rather than spreading it across all who think it might be nice to have another/another/another baby?

And yes it makes all the sense in the world that the people who receive benefits are subject to the same constraints as those who fund them. Not sure how this could be considered provocative.

Lola even government has accepted women can be coerced in an abusive relationship, raped etc hence the clause. Why should anyone have to disclose this to the government it's degrading. Not to mention the women trapped in abusive relationships due to cuts to refuges etc as can only get it when not in the relationship. That this country wants to treat us like this makes me sick. This society is unwell these days

Jacob Rees Mogg has six children. He’s a multi millionaire. Breed as much as you like if you’re a wealthy toff. Having said that, do think less is better for our overcrowded planet

I can’t stand JRM for many reasons, but I can’t accuse him of having kids he can’t afford to support. It’s terrible from an environmental perspective! But this thread is about people having kids they can’t afford to raise and the government policy of trying to dissuade that by only funding two. Of course if you’re wealthy you can afford more children, out of your own pocket.

The snobs always claim when they fall on hard times though. Girl I know from middle class family, they had several foreign holidays a year etc got pregnant at 15 and claimed benefits whilst living with her parents who could afford to bank roll her themselves. We were friends and she admitted all her income support went on going out on the weekend as her parents paid for everything. Why should middle class families like this get benefits they don't need? The family was the snobby look down on you type aswell but didnt stop them claiming when they could!

2eternities saying poor shouldn’t have sex

Lol what? Who has said that poor people shouldn’t have sex? You’re plucking nonsense out of thin air. Having sex doesn’t have to equal conceiving a child you know. As many PP have pointed out, we’re fortunate to live in a country with multiple forms of contraception available easily and often for free, and safe free legal abortion. I’m always amazed at the number of ‘unplanned’ pregnancies on MN when you compare to the known failure rate of contraceptives. Either MN attracts a disproportionately large number of people who are genuinely unlucky enough to be the one or two women who will fall pregnant in a given year while using the pill correctly, people who like to say they’re using contraception when in reality they’re using it a bit some of the time, or people are telling a few porkies about how careful they were.

I’m fourteen years of being sexually actively I’ve had zero unplanned pregnancies. You’d think from reading MN that’s astonishingly unlikely. Plenty of people double up on the pill and condoms for example. Nobody in this country, short of people who are the victims of sexual assault and for one reason or another can not access abortion (maybe finding out far too late), has to have a child they don’t want.

@2eternities

Thank you for being brave enough to tell people about your past. I'm so sorry that things like this have happened to you. If this doesn't make people realise what they are condoning I don't no what will.

Poor women raped and abused but hey they should have been more prepared right or they should have to face judgement from some shitty jobs worth at the DWP. Shame on all the women on this thread keeping other women down. Just the minority are playing the system so does that mean women that need our help don't deserve it?

Still no one has answered what we do with the third children who are born to families who need that money. I suppose its because no body can think of anything remotely human to say for those children.

I have been following this thread closely because I have been desperate for people to be opossing this. Just so I know that there is kindness left in humanity and compassion. As a PP said it's always the women who suffer. I'm honestly shocked and upset with the responses it makes me realise how cold the world is becoming. We are supposed to be the developed world but I'd wager that over half of the women on this thread are happy for children to go without because it's parental responsibility at the end of the day.

@Spiceupyourlife It's amazing what you have done in a short space of time with regard to financial stability. However I can guarantee that better opportunities were presented to you than most. You are in the few. Do we all not have a responsibility to the many. Society is like a circle you invest in all of society and the whole of the economy is boosted. Like I said all that money won't be following you when you are gone.

Do i think its unfair that alot of people can't have children because of finances. Ofcourse I do. But once again everything needs to be looked at, if you invest in education, health care, welfare, if you boost the living wage and everyone puts back in to the economy then everyone is winning not just the very top percentage of the richest people in this country.

I implore some of you to stop reading the same headlines. To turn off the BBC. To go to a food bank. To look at the streets to see how many homeless people are sleeping on the floor. Get mad, get angry for the single mother of three trying desperately to pull herself out of a hole. Get angry for the family on benefits because their children are disabled or they themselves and they are being told they are fit to work. Feel immense sadness for the woman who had to abort her baby because she had no other choice which will effect her life forever. Feel sadness for the little girl who grows up believing she is nothing and no one because she has no money and watch how the cycle repeats itself.

This country is failing the many.

Chilli have you read my post? Some of us have been refused sterilisation due to age after having the allowed two children and can't use any contraception than condoms because of health reasons. They have a higher fail rate than any other and that's if you have a man who will wear them regularly. It's not all cut and dried. Anyway I'm off this sickening thread to have fun in the sun with my beautiful children. Ciao

The childcare and disability elements will still be paid for third and subsequent children. It is only the basic elements that aren't paid.

Can men theoretically have as many offspring as they like as long as its only 2 per woman? Or are we only judging women? I think globally we need to limit the population but I have sympathy for children born into large poor family's as they have no choice.

@2eternities no one has said people should not have sex. They have said though they should take responsibility for getting pregnant. I managed never to have an "accident" as did several women I know.

If you cannot be sterilised then why can't your partner have a vasectomy?

I am far from a snob. I was born in a council house to parents who went without so that myself and my siblings could eat, have school shoes etc. My mum worked evenings so she could be at home with us during the day and then my dad would take over. I don't see any of my neighbours who are on benefits with 2 or more children going without. The best mobile phones, smoking a packet of cigarettes each a day, a car each, sky tv etc.

Me and DH have been through hard times and, guess what, never entitled to even a penny. DH had a stroke a couple of years ago but has to work full time because being self employed he is entitled to a big NOTHING. I can't work because of my health but, again, am entitled to nothing.

I am sick of parents thinking the country should support the children they obviously could not afford to have

“The low income family is being given a payment each month to help cover the basic costs of a baby/child because their income is so low that it would be a struggle to meet these needs”.

If we had a third child, we would have had to fund him/her out of our existing income. We wouldn’t have got a ‘pay-rise’ if we expanded our family. We considered our income and decided we couldn’t afford a third child. We were taking responsibility for our family.

Some major projecting here. It's just no pay rise for a third or subsequent child born after 1 April 2017.

@SweetMelodies if you factor the cost of childcare I doubt there's much difference in income. Everyone has to live within their means, whatever that is and however you get your money. We can comfortably just afford one so we will have one; if we had more money we would have more. 2 seems a fair number.

If we had a third child, we would have had to fund him/her out of our existing income. We wouldn’t have got a ‘pay-rise’ if we expanded our family. We considered our income and decided we couldn’t afford a third child. We were taking responsibility for our family.

^ This probably sums it all up. The government has decided it won't be able to support an indefinite amount of children per family. So they have taken action ... And if you look around, most families have 2-3 children. So they set the cap at 2. Decision made, everyone knows about it. Considering the Housing shortage, cost of food and other resources, introducing a measure of population control might not be that bad.
And if you want to have more than 2 children, nobody is stopping you, you just have to be responsible for your own actions. (And I believe the exception % as in rape or multiple birth is not as high as some on NM would make us think.)

Spot on, Vla. I agree that men should be restricted, too, and also held far more to account when it comes to supporting children they father, but that's another issue that needs to be addressed. No increase in benefits for more than 2 with the multiple issue excepted seems entirely reasonable, especially in an era of climate change and high housing cost.

This thread has been absolutely amazing.
What nasty jealous people, with no empathy at all.
I studied Kathy come home, both from a media and social pov, and often wondered how a society had come to that. It was hardly believable, but looking at Mnet where people actually say what they really feel, I'm not surprised at all, and if you are a nasty jealous uncaring person then you should be ashamed.
None of this affects me, mine have all gone now, but I can sympathise with those who are struggling or have less than me.
I certainly don't begrudge anyone the help they need.

It's jealous not to support the government increasing benefits for more than 2 children after 1 April 2017? What an odd viewpoint. As it is, from an environmental standpoint the policy makes good sense.

Oral
Some of the comments on here the people making them should be ashamed, irrespective of any government policy.