‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

[SweetMelodies]

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

Unfortunately, we never managed to have more than one. If we had that would have put financial pressure on us in that we needed to move at some point. Having a third would have been a permanent struggle and neither of us expect other people to pay for that.

No tax credits were available for families when I had ds (iirc), or only for the very very poorest.

A lot of people seem to forget that there was initially Family Allowance, which at first was not paid for the first child, but for all subsequent children, and then the policy changed to include the first child. Plus there was a Married Man's tax allowance. Various groups campaigned for this to be abolished and rolled into Child Benefit on the grounds that Child Benefit was usually drawn by the woman and was much more likely to get to the children that way.

It is difficult because of course it is not fair for couples to continue having children while relying solely on the state BUT it is the children suffering at the end of the day.

More education is needed. I barely heard people talk about this two children cap.

Also: "Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum"?

Do we? I certainly don't.

I am currently receiving tax credits and I 100% agree with the two children policy.

I work so I don't receive the full raft of benefits, just a top up, but I already feel uncomfortable about receiving the benefits that I do. However without them I couldn't afford childcare for DD so I wouldn't be able to work as much as I do. Once she is at school I will make ends meet with no assistance.

Why should the taxpayer fund me having three children? It's grossly unfair.

I think it's good that there are benefits for up to two children but beyond that shouldn't be necessary.

I have friends who are in couples where both parents earn well and they have all, without exception, made the decision to stop at two children as they can't safely afford any more than that.

Of my 30 or so friends that I know well enough to have these conversations with, not one of them feels in a position to afford a third child.

So why on earth should anyone else be funded to have more than two children?

However it is deeply concerning that there will be families who are plunged into abject poverty because the parents don't comprehend that their benefits won't go up with each child they have. It's awful to think of the children who will be brought into this situation.

One thing I'm not clear on is whether the same rules apply for parents who have triplets (or twins if they already have one child).

Unclear why people have kids they can’t afford

This. There was a woman who worked part time in a cafe complaining she had 4 kids and her benefits were less.

Cry me a river. Seriously. You work part time in a cafe and thought you could afford FOUR kids? No of course you didn’t you just expected tax payers to fund your lifestyle.

I work full time and would struggle to afford one right now!!

If you can't afford kids, don't have them. End of.

Homo Sapiens won't learn, of course. We'll breed ourselves to extinction.

Also, we seem to be funding Prince William's third child. Where is the punishment for them going over the population replacement limit? Oh yeah, they are rich people living off the state, so that's fine.

I think there should be exemptions for people who can prove they're on long term contraceptives such as the coil........other than that I think it's fair. 💁 I'd love more DC but could only afford 2. Large families are a luxury. They shouldn't be afforded to people who want to have it all whilst working minimal hours.

Also, we seem to be funding Prince William's third child.
. Not set a good example, has he?

The government does enough, two kids are given tax credits, and the NHS provides free contraception, abortions, sterilisation and vascetomies. At some point people really do have to take responsibility for their decisions, if you have a third or fourth child that was your choice, and you need to meet the needs of that child yourself.

No government policy should be incentivising people to breed when overpopulation of the world is the biggest factor in what may lead to our downfall as a species.

Also, we seem to be funding Prince William's third child. Where is the punishment for them going over the population replacement limit? Oh yeah, they are rich people living off the state, so that's fine

Do you live under a rock? There are threads every day on this site complaining about the royals and how they should be abolished

I think there does need to be a limit on how many kids our country supports within families. There is no need for more than two children.

However, completely agree with @newmomof1 - circumstances change and the system should be there to support these people, who are in the situation through no fault of their own. Cases should be individually assessed its not a one size fits all.

I know three families who ended up with more DC than they wanted.

First was told they were incurably infertile - tell that to their twins - second was pregnant with no 2, also twins - third had an addict brother and SIL who walked out on their 5 DC and SS asked the couple to adopt the two youngest. Which they did, thereby not getting fostering allowance.

All these couples are, and remain, highly middle class and were open about just how unenchanted they were with the extra effort and expense.

So it's not always 'to get benefits'.

It's all well and good saying only have as many as you can afford but accidents do happen. A friend of mine had 2 DC, was doing her PhD as DC were both at school and it was time to focus on her career. She had a contraceptive failure, had baby #3 which she didn't get any TC for. Her DH then had a vasectomy as they definitely could not afford any more. Her DH had to reduce his hours so that they wouldn't have any child care fees.

After getting the all clear sperm wise she was horrified to discover she was pregnant 6 months later. She was bf so didn't realise until 16 weeks. Her MH became really bad because of the stress, she was on a salaried (£14k approx) PhD which she had already taken one ML and she was under pressure to move on and terrified what her supervisor was going to say about this pregnancy. They had to move 10 miles away to a cheaper area for lower rents which meant her DC had to move school. She had 2 DC under 18 months, no childcare element to pay for nursery etc and no family nearby. Her DH became self employed so that he could do some childcare so she could do her research but it has been such a struggle for her to keep their heads above the water. I can see the theoretical benefit of limiting benefits to 2 DC but ultimately it will lead to women being punished which pushes me over the fence.

Oh blah to people who say having kids is a luxury. What if you use all the contraception and fall pregnant should we make people have abortions? Because having that third kid is a luxury right? What about multiple births?

I have paid in to the system all of my working life and when I need help to afford things for my family surely I should be able to take out some of that system. No wonder the Tory scumbags are in power its the selfish I'm alright Jack attitudes of people which is why thousands of people are going under. Save your outrage for tax havens of the super rich and the massive tax avoidance from huge companies which could all contribute.

But that's alright because our society is geared towards believing you aren't worth shit unless you have money. Isn't it a sad state of affairs when the media has made you turn against poor bloody Susan next door who's fella walked ou n left her with five kids, who is on about 500 a month and not concentrate on the super rich who are diddling us out of millions.

Try not to judge unless u have fallen on some hard times no body wants to have to beg for some kind of benefit it's degrading. Now more kids forced in to poverty under this government that extra money is a few nappies and tins of formula, a few extra toys at Xmas and a day out gone.

I thought Prince William was independently wealthy ,his mother left him millions when she died? Obviously circumstances do change as I well know I had to give up work to care for a disabled child, but the old system didn't work, just because people on mumsnet don't know families that continued to have children they couldn't afford doesn't mean it didn't happen.

My heart sinks every time I read a thread on here featuring someone who is expecting a baby with a no-marks man, with no money, an unstable home environment and a bleak looking future. I want to scream STOP HAVING CHILDREN to all those men and women.

I don't understand why anyone would be so stupid as to have children they cannot afford to support and raise. Yes, accidents do happen, but most of these situations are choices not accidents. It makes my blood boil.

There are exemptions to the two child rule

but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

Which as the parents they will be responsible for.

No-one likes to see children suffer obviously, but the parents have the choice to decide to continue with the pregnancy.

If adding one more child will make the others actually suffer, rather than just having to wear secondhand clothes and play with secondhand toys etc, then the parents need to take a long hard look at that when making their decision.

I think calling it a 2 child limit is bonkers!! I opened the thread wondering what country we were talking about.

Why would you have a child you can't afford to raise yourself? I genuinely don't understand. We have a dd, nearly 6, never claimed any additional benefits other than the child payment every 1st born gets, we wanted more but have waited until we felt we were in a good position financially to add another child to our family

Yeah I think opinions on this will also rely on whether someone truly believes in unplanned pregnancies happening.

Contraception services where I am have got considerably worse though I just say. Long waits to get long-acting contraception, limited appointments etc. Doesn’t make things easy for a lot of people.

https://www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Exemptionstoo2childdlimit

I think the worst thing about this though is that it means that HMRC or DWP have to be told when a child is conceived through rape. It shouldn't have to be disclosed to these agencies. That's why I fundamentally disagree with their being a limit and exemptions. The only way is to make it the same for all subsequent children regardless of their conception etc. And I don't believe in punishing children (or rape victims) so that means we need to pay for child one, child two, child three, and child eighteen too if there is one. Most people won't abort a baby on the grounds of whether they'll get benefits or not, and it's the children who suffer.

There are so many other things that I think are more important uses of public money. I also think that we need to global initiative to reduce the human population by reducing the birth rate. That includes the benefits system and education among other things.