‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

[SweetMelodies]

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

When these children go to School ,maybe need some medical care ,and so on ,the taxpayers are stumping up for them over and over again . In the long run it seems to be a form of Birth Control to keep the population down ,and therefore keep public services at a safe level.

And they grow up and pay taxes that will pay towards your care, if you need it. Our birth rate is below replacement level, services aren't safe under the Tories anyway, but having less young people paying tax won't help.

A lot of posters seem to be specifically thinking of unemployed people having multiple kids. What about a working married couple with 2 children just about getting by on an annual income of 30K, an unplanned pregnancy happens and baby 3 is on the way. Mum is going to likely be thinking about an abortion or risking pushing their family into hardship.

Re vouchers for baby stuff... ‘baby/toddler libraries’ round here seem to have really expanded the last couple of years (places where clothes and equipment like cots/pushchairs are loaned or given away) so maybe this will help with that aspect.

Sorry but I thought we were all for equality.
How is it equal if those working and paying can’t afford three kids but those who aren’t and get everything paid for get the choice to have as many kids as they want.

What about a working married couple with 2 children just about getting by on an annual income of 30K, an unplanned pregnancy happens and baby 3 is on the way. Mum is going to likely be thinking about an abortion or risking pushing their family into hardship.
Then they can't afford a 3rd child.

It always amazes me given the statistical accuracy of contraception just how many 'accidental pregnancies' happen when couples are 'using contraception properly' (or not using it properly and then being surprised when pregnancy happens).

People cut their cloth according to their means. If you're just about managing and another child would force the family into destitution then don't have another child.

A lot of posters seem to be specifically thinking of unemployed people having multiple kids. What about a working married couple with 2 children just about getting by on an annual income of 30K, an unplanned pregnancy happens and baby 3 is on the way. Mum is going to likely be thinking about an abortion or risking pushing their family into hardship.

Then Mum and Dad need to decide together what to do and if having a 3rd child is going to cause impecunity and make life worse for the 2 kids they already have, then abortion is a valid choice.

What about a working married couple with 2 children just about getting by on an annual income of 30K, an unplanned pregnancy happens and baby 3 is on the way. Mum is going to likely be thinking about an abortion or risking pushing their family into hardship

Then they can’t afford a third child or they step up and get second jobs etc.

It’s perfectly possible to avoid pregnancy if you don’t want to actually get pregnant. You can abstain around ovule time, double up on methods etc. It’s not hard.

@pollypenguin01 absolutely agree!!

@Wereeaglesdare if you have a third child because of rape then, quite rightly, you are supported by the state.
@NicciLovesSundays not sure how we'd run out of resources unless someone plundered our bank account. We've had a child older than we'd have liked because we've been busy saving for a home and for his education.

My husband and I have a good standard of living but I would not take the risk of having more than 2 children, anything can happen, divorce, death, redundancy, illness, life can change tomorrow so why do women take the risk? Men can and do walk away, very few women can. The more children you have the bigger chance of falling into poverty. We are so lucky to have free birth control in this country, that gives so many women choices. I thank my lucky stars every day I was born in the UK.

Having only read the first page I just have to say how sad I am to read that so many people feel that ‘having children isn’t a right’. Some people have children because they want the unconditional love from another person, or they want to give their love to another person. Children bring a hell of a lot of happiness and whether you can afford them or not shouldn’t matter. This country spends a hell of a lot of money on things that don‘t even affect us in positive or negatives ways.

Those who wait to have children because they can’t afford it clearly look at children as a step in their life rather than it being what their lives are about. Selfish. Children need love not material things and so they should be wanted for that alone.

If anybody told me to not have a child because I couldn’t afford one I’d tell you where to shove your opinion. We’re not a poor country, so mind your own business and have some compassion and empathy for these people who just want to love these children. You’re entitled to your opinion and I am aware this is a forum for opinion but shoving your views and looking down on those who do not agree is disgraceful and what is the real problem with this country - people with too much to say.

I personally would have an abortion if I fell pregnant by accident with a 3rd child, I wouldn’t want to put my other 2 children in poverty. I will be passing on the same advise to my daughter to not have more than 2 children whether she takes that advise is up to her.

"Those who wait to have children because they can’t afford it clearly look at children as a step in their life rather than it being what their lives are about. Selfish. Children need love not material things and so they should be wanted for that alone."

@Sorrywhat this is bullshit. If a person or couple are barely scraping by, constantly in debt and struggling to afford basic necessities for themselves then why would it be selfish to say 'you know what, we can't afford a child because we wouldn't be able to feed and clothe it.' I would call it very unselfish.

Children need love not material things

I think you'll find that as well as love children require food and shelter and clothing and medical care and an education. And that these things cost money.

No one is saying that you cannot have as many children as you like. What people are saying is that they are comfortable with limits being placed on how much money can be drawn from the state to support 3rd and subsequent children.

Those who wait to have children because they can’t afford it clearly look at children as a step in their life rather than it being what their lives are about. Selfish. Children need love not material things and so they should be wanted for that alone.

This is just the funniest thing I’ve read on MN in ages 😂 bless your socks. Sure, I’m selfish to have waited five years past when I initially really wanted kids so I could find a suitable partner/father, progress my career and therefore income, save up for a property for some housing stability, and make sure I had other savings to cover emergencies. It’s sure selfish of me to be sat here fifteen weeks pregnant with a planned and already loved (by two parents!) baby, knowing when they arrive we have the time and resources to be able to support them with extracurricular activities, enable them to pursue interests that may cost money, in a household not suffering from arguments about lack of money, able to buy the things they need to thrive.

It’d actually have been more selfless to have decided five years ago when I first got super broody to just go for it, poor income be damned, where my job couldn’t support us if the relationship went tits up, because babies only need love ya know and if you pause to plan for them it shows you don’t really want them badly enough 😂

This is amazing. I really hope you’re just having a laugh. ‘Children need love not material things’, not sure my love alone is enough to purchase food, nappies, toiletries, somewhere safe to sleep, etc. let alone the costs of an older child.

Ironic really when having a kid you can’t afford to support just because you want one is one of the most selfish short sighted decisions you can make, with potentially very far reaching consequences.

@Sorrywhat - but I’d rather use my money I work for to benefit my child that we can afford than propping up someone’s kids who are here to fill a love gap of the parent.

Children really aren’t aright, there should be no entitlement to expect everyone else to financially support your choices.

One thing I SERIOUSLY don't agree with is the fact if someone has worked all there life then become unable to due to disability they only get TC for 2 children!

My mums friend had paid in for 25 years but had to go to food banks when she needed help because what she got just about covered the bills and the things DC needed 🤷🏻‍♀️

But the issue, as I see it, is also about fairness to everyone. Lots of people have fewer children than they might have ideally liked based on their financial position. It is true for us- we wouldn't be in poverty, but we wouldn't be able to have the lifestyle or give our DC the opportunities we would like/think are important if we had more than we have so we limited the size of our family. Others may chose to sacrifice lifestyle for a bigger family, of course.

Nobody gives our family more money/a bigger house etc if we choose to have more children. Our income remains the same whether we have 1, 2 or 5 children and we have to manage within that budget. Why should being in receipt of benefits absolve you of having to live within your means? There has to be a line somewhere and I think 2 children should be enough for most people. And if it is not, you should find a way to support your family. I recognise it is not always straightforward, or easy though.

@Ginger1982 But going to work full time and leaving a child who you so love and want to provide for with strangers every day is perfectly lovely? So your child can be clothed in the best brands and have holidays abroad twice a year? Give it a rest, children want to be loved and there are provisions in place in this country to ensure they are clothed and fed.

I admire people who really think and plan before they have a child and not just have one for there own selfish reasons. My cousin really wanted a child and would’ve made a lovely Mum and is financially stable to have one on her own but she wouldn’t without being in a loving relationship with the father, she never found the right person so never had a child, I think that is a really selfless thing to do.

I would just like to k ow whose pocket on here it is directly hitting? You would still be paying the same tax and NI so why do you make it your issue to complain and judge others.
Deal with your own problems.

If anybody told me to not have a child because I couldn’t afford one I’d tell you where to shove your opinion. We’re not a poor country, so mind your own business and have some compassion and empathy for these people who just want to love these children
You're more than welcome to have however many children you can afford to raise in a reasonable standard of living.
It is not the job of the state to fund anyone
popping out sprogs because they feel entitled to a baby and want to love something.
It's statements like this and people with attitudes like this that get the right wing frothy over benefits.

We need a strong welfare state to support those who need it. We don't need to fund people who think they are entitled to bring a life into the world in order to feel loved (in fact if that's their logic on bringing a child into the world knowing they can't support them adequately then it's probably a sign they shouldn't be having a child).

Are you hard of thinking sorry? There are many things I would rather the tax I pay go to than funding other people's large families via the benefit system. I might, for instance, want to support their children (and everyone else's) by more funding going into education or healthcare, or into fighting climate change or tackling the social care crisis or air pollution.

You can't on the one hand tell people "its not your business" and then demand their tax money on the other.

@sorrywhat

So no parent should ever work and all of children's (and their parent's) needs should be funded by the state?

Those who wait to have children because they can’t afford it clearly look at children as a step in their life rather than it being what their lives are about. Selfish

No, what is selfish is having children and expecting other people to pay towards raising them.

No sympathy here.

When mine were little, there were no tax credits, and we got fuck-all help (apart from child benefit that even fucking millionaires got!) We also never got any childcare paid for. So we had to pay bucketloads for childminders and stuck at 2 kids because we could not AFFORD more than that.

So people cannot have more than 2 kids now unless they support them themselves. Fucking shocker! Imagine having kids and SUPPORTING THEM YOURSELF!

Not a fan of the Tories, but this rule/law is one of the better things they have brought in. Too many people were milking the system something chronic, and having one kid after another, knowing they would have a lovely fat bouncy cushion of tax credits dished out for each extra kid.

It had to stop, and I am glad it did.

I don't give a rat's tit what anyone thinks of me for saying this.

State benefits are there to help when one NEEDS them, they are not meant to be a lifestyle choice. And yeah sure, some women DO end up on benefits with 3 or 4 kids through no fault of their own, but they are outnumbered MASSIVELY by the piss-takers who have milked the system. I know this, because of the line of work I am in

@BlooperReel

I think any policy resulting in children living in poverty and not having their needs met is despicable. I would rather pay for a feckless few to pop out six kids and sit on benefits than see millions of children suffer.

What utterly ludicrous leftie garbage.

It's NOT just a feckless few. It's 10s of 1000s!

I am certainly not happy to let multiple 1000s of people live at the taxpayers expense, having one child after another, and getting more handouts for each extra one they have, while I work my arse off paying taxes, and never being afford to have more than 2 children.

This is why I will never ever ever vote Labour again. And neither will any other hardworking person I know.

Oh and it's utter crap that the UK NEEDS people to have many more children. What rot.

And some people are rambling on about how people will NEED the extra tax credits with 3 or 4 or more kids if the man in their life loses their job, or they end up alone. How the hell do you think people coped pre-tax credits?! FFS, talk about bloody entitled!!!