Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

‘Two-child limit taking toll on family life’

999 replies

SweetMelodies · 27/06/2019 10:05

www.itv.com/news/2019-06-25/two-child-limit-taking-toll-on-family-life-study-suggests/

So the first detailed research into families effected by the 2-child policy, where tax credits are only paid for the first two children unlike in the past when it was every child, has taken place and has found that families are suffering as a direct result of this.

A lot of comments on SM seem to forget that many many working families are effected as well. Even some families with ‘above-average’ incomes used to be entitled to tax credits for a third or subsequent child.

Any thoughts on this? I have mixed feelings as to whether it will work on in the long-run or not. Of course we all know families who have carried on having babies with no thought because each child has meant another monthly tax credits sum... but then there are also the families who are going to face one unplanned pregnancy that could push them into poverty and make their other children suffer.

OP posts:
AlaskanOilBaron · 27/06/2019 17:22

Our best guess is that they’re more likely to be receiving a citizens income than actually working.

Wereeaglesdare · 27/06/2019 17:24

@Isabellinton
I just find it absolutely appalling the lack of compassion you people seem to have regarding starving children. I find it very hard to be a sweetheart in them circumstances personally. But hey I just have morals like..

fairweathercyclist · 27/06/2019 17:39

A poster upthread said how difficult it was to get hold of contraception - apparently there’s a long wait time for a GP appointment at her surgery

There's a long wait at most surgeries, but you can order repeat prescriptions online. And if you need a blood pressure check presumably the nurse can do that? And failing that, go and buy some condoms. Or abstain. The lack of GP appointments is a massive problem, but I don't think it should be used as an excuse to overpopulate the UK.

MyDcAreMarvel · 27/06/2019 17:40

My half baked solution to this is one of these two options:

1) All families are given assistance in the form of goods relating specifically to children's needs and vouchers that can only spent on kids stuff.

You are correct it is a half baked idea. Would lead to people paying over the odds for any essential items, and many items simply not available.

IsabellaLinton · 27/06/2019 17:57

@Whereeaglesdare

Do you always assume people who disagree with you have no morals?

I personally find it immoral to expect others to do things for me that I can do myself. I’d find it equally immoral to expect others to financially support me, or to support bad choices I’d made.

I have plenty of compassion for starving children. They have no agency. I wouldn’t necessarily have equal compassion for their parents, the adults who chose to bring them into the world.

wheresmymojo · 27/06/2019 17:58

I don't disagree with the policy per se for all the reasons PP have outlined

But...I think it should be in parallel with really hardcore processes around child maintenance from fathers as otherwise women and children are being disproportionately made to suffer.

If a couple break up and the father has an income everything (including prison time if necessary) should be thrown into making sure he meets financial responsibilities.

Spiceupyourlife · 27/06/2019 17:58

@Wereeaglesdare

🤔 I wonder if all the irresponsible idiots CHOOSING to have more children than they can provide the basics for feel as guilty about it as you do. I’m guessing not.

There’s a reason that so many street beggars use (dopped up) children as props to garner more sympathy and (in a some cases) it’s exactly the same thing but on a wider scale. Struggled to get by before having children, struggled to get by when having further children and now point to that child whilst angrily asking the government ‘why are they hungry?’

🤔 They’re hungry because you can’t provide for them and frankly they shouldn’t be here but you were selfish!

You can say ‘accidental pregnancy, exceptional circumstances, disability...etc and YES those cases deserve help but that’s not the majority! A LOT of people knowingly have children (multiple) they just can’t afford on the basis that the GOV will HAVE to provide a certain standard of life for them!

Children do not deserve to suffer, ever, under any circumstances but parents can’t simply put the government over a barrell and demand financial support. In a system where adults can benefit by having children, children will always suffer!

BarbarianMum · 27/06/2019 18:01

Totally agree about child maintenance mojo

wheresmymojo · 27/06/2019 18:04

the notion of the 'deserving poor' vs the 'undeserving poor' is perpetuated

I'm going to be controversial now but there are people in my family that are the undeserving poor IMO.

We all came from the same background - they pissed about at school, played truant, openly admitted to getting pregnant to get a council house, have had more children and haven't worked a day in their lives.

I know it's a frowned upon notion but there is such a thing.

wheresmymojo · 27/06/2019 18:05

And if provision of contraception is widely available (eg where I am its so hard to get an appointment to see your GP that it will put people off/people will miss a minth of OCP etc...)

Then don't have sex until you've had an appointment. There has to be some personal responsibility in life surely?

Jimdandy · 27/06/2019 18:06

No one needs more than 2 children. If you want more you pay for them.

I don’t believe not calling it helps with child poverty. Most of the children I experience first hand who are in poverty is due to the skewed priorities of their parents.

You could give them super generous benefits and their kids would still be in rags and hungry

TheTitOfTheIceberg · 27/06/2019 18:07

Whenever I read threads like this I am saddened by the lack of compassion and understanding, and the levels of unconscious privilege that some posters have. There's definitely a strong sense of deserving and undeserving poor: the nice middle class educated woman who has three children with her husband who then loses his job is one thing; the feckless benefit scrounger on the council estate who has three children by three different fathers is beyond the pale entirely.

Does anyone ever stop to think why a woman would do something as counter-intuitive as bringing several children into an impoverished situation? It's not going to be for shits and giggles, and it's certainly not for the champagne lifestyle a life on benefits offers. It's very easy to sit in judgement and pronounce on how easy it is to access contraception and use it correctly. Of course it is...if you're educated enough to understand how it works; confident in navigating the healthcare system; have a partner willing to use the most easily accessible type; and have some alternative focus in your life that makes holding off from having children worthwhile. If all you've ever known growing up is abuse, neglect, absent parenting, a hand to mouth existence, crime, unemployment, loan sharks, authority and its figureheads being something untrustworthy to view with suspicion and shy away from, sporadic education because no one cared enough to make sure you went to school, junk food because no one ever taught your mum to cook, and even if you wanted to learn you don't have the confidence to try or the money to waste on more ingredients if you get it wrong...how on earth can you expect someone from that environment and background to make good choices? To think about saving for the future, when the future looks like more of the same? To put off having children until they can afford to pay for them themselves when they will never be able to in a million years, and when their children provide the closest thing to love they've ever felt? To have any kind of ambition when life and society has taught them they're 'scum', they're 'chavs', they're 'thick', everyone looks down on them, they're going to get judged and knocked down and demonised whatever they do so why not stick two fingers up at a society that clearly hates them and screw it for what they can get? Let's face it, some of that judgement and hatred is visible right here on this thread so they're not exactly wrong, are they?

Of course some people can make their way out of that kind of unpromising beginning, but just because a few individuals with impressive strength of will manage to move away from their crowd doesn't mean everyone can unaided or that the effort to do so should be underestimated. We need to be investing much more in initiatives that give underprivileged women in particular options, and hope, and an incentive to change their lives for the better, not simply demonising them and deciding its fine for their children to live in poverty because they had the temerity to make decisions you consider irresponsible, and you believe that by squeezing them even harder some of the drops might fall your way instead - which they never do, of course.

Wereeaglesdare · 27/06/2019 18:21

@Spiceupyourlife

The certain standard you are referring to is the standards that we should all adhere to under the human rights act and the children's act. If the government does not pay for the child. Where does the child end up? Because people will reproduce its in our nature for God's sake. You all say don't have kids, we'll that is ridiculous people will have children regardless so what then? What after they have had kids? Do they go without food so their child can eat? I'm sure they already do that.

This hate culture around benefits is validated every time some stupid program is on channel five or every time you pick up the stupid paper. Absolutely fed up of it. Its a bloody distraction people please wake up. If I was ruining this county and taking the money for the rich of course I would spread hate so that you would hate your neighbour instead of looking at the wider picture. Honestly the money spent on benefits is fuck all compared to tax evasion.

Yes children do not deserve to suffer but they will because no body stood up and said something. The UN reported the shocking levels of poverty and they want to take away even more from the poorest in society.

aphrodites · 27/06/2019 18:36

Surely the problem is that this punishes the children as much as the parents, where do you draw the line? Is it okay for a child to live in poverty because of their parents choices? Do we not have any obligations to children living in our country?

Pinkfinkle · 27/06/2019 18:38

I only ever feel sorry for the children in these scenarios. They didn’t ask to be born and shouldn’t have to suffer. I don’t agree with the tax credit cut off whatsoever and I do not think it will stop people having more children.

slipperywhensparticus · 27/06/2019 18:42

If it's only people "who can afford them" that can have children poor people wont be able to breed so how long is it before we are all steralized unless we are being used by the rich to avoid too much inbreeding

PatoPotato · 27/06/2019 18:44

It's funny. Donald Trump filed bankruptcy, bragged about it, and is now US president.

The rich take advantage of society all the time.

But let's begrudge little children having a meal, hmm? They're the real enemy.

It's sad how morally corrupt some people have become.

AnnaNimmity · 27/06/2019 18:51

oh fgs, the issue is that in this day and age there is an increasing number of children in this country heading into poverty. This report is one element of that.

It isn't to do with feckless parents choosing to have children so they can claim more benefits and buy ipads. The vast majority of parents heading into poverty now are in work.

A high proportion of those parents heading into poverty are disbled or single parents.

The issue isn't them having lots of children, the issue or issues, because there are many relate to the lack of well (enough) paid jobs, lack of affordable housing, lack of a welfare state, lack of affordable childcare. It really isn't down to the parents choosing (or not) to have a third child.

You really need to actually read the damned report. Read other reports and then you'll see that major scale changes need to be made to the way we run things.

It makes me so mad that you are mums are on here saying this stuff, while Jeremy Hunt and his mate Boris Johnson are promising more tax cuts for the well off. It is relatively cheap to lift a huge proportion of families and children out of poverty. The tories just refuse to do it. And in the meantime it is children who are suffering.

AnnaNimmity · 27/06/2019 18:57

and yes mojo enforcement of child maintenance obligations would also help. There are so many issues at play here.

JellyBaby666 · 27/06/2019 19:03

@wheresmymojo You’re assuming all women are able to decline sex in their relationship, or that their partners will wear a condom and keep it on during sex. (They aren’t, and some don’t)

wheresmymojo · 27/06/2019 19:06

@TheTitOfTheIceberg

Case study example.

Me and my second cousin are from the same poor old mining town.

She had two working parents (not well off - dinner lady and dustman but working). I had an abusive alcoholic father and then, after we left, a single mother.

She chose to play truant because she couldn't 'be arsed' with school. She also chose to start taking drugs for fun. She then openly admitted to purposefully getting pregnant at 17 to get a council house. She's never worked and has three children.

I chose to do different things.

If you think there's no such thing as the undeserving poor then you're lucky not to have met any. She had a much more stable upbringing than I did.

There has to be some level of personal responsibility in life.

Of course, there will be others who had a shit start in life that caused their situation or became disabled, etc. But let's not pretend there's no such thing as the undeserving poor at all because that isn't reality.

Also - as it happens. I'm disabled, I know there might come a point when I can't always earn what I do now so I am choosing to have one child. It's very patronising to assume disabled people can't also be fiscally responsible.

wheresmymojo · 27/06/2019 19:10

@JellyBaby666

No. I'm not.

Non-consensual pregnancies are exempt from the rules.

I agree that contraceptive failure is the challenging bit here. That being said when I have got pregnant and financially couldn't afford it I had an abortion. It was a difficult decision and I sobbed my heart out but that's how life is sometimes. I don't expect society to pick up every misfortune that happens in my life.

...and no, I don't think that means women should be forced to have abortions before anyone puts words in my mouth.

But shit circumstances happen (like unplanned pregnancies) and then you have to make difficult decisions. This is adulthood.

sar302 · 27/06/2019 19:10

The massive failure of the child benefit system is allowed to continue because it rarely effects men - and it's men who are most frequently in power and could change things. But have no interest in doing so.
In the same way, the current benefit system is failing, because it rarely effects those in power - who don't need benefits - who could actually change it.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't occasionally roll my eyes at threads on here, where people are having a third / fourth child, whilst living in a two bed flat and complaining they don't have enough room. That being said, I'd rather the occasional eye roll, and that the most vulnerable in society were being provided for, than we have the sort of non existent social care system that exists in America for example.

bendylikebecs · 27/06/2019 19:13

I used to work in a benefit sector. Honestly, the amount some people received in total floored me. When the benefit cap came in we saw people lose hundreds of pounds a week, which was awful for them but similarly how was it allowed to get that high to begin with?

It’s tough on family’s that may unexpectedly have another child, but it needed to be done.

In some cultures it’s common to just keep having children, like cultures that don’t believe in contraception and was getting out of hand.

Many working people have to think long and hard about if they can have another child. Some people I saw would just say ‘I’m pregnant, how much extra will I get and when will you move me to a bigger house’. I unexpectedly fell pregnant and had to have a termination, it was devastating but we just could not afford it. So I completely understand the impossible position some people are in and how tough it is to be faced with that sort of decision.

I know in an ideal world everyone would be just fine. But how can we watch the NHS fall apart and social services stretched etc and be fine with paying out millions more to families who have more kids than they can afford, by choice.

IceCreamAndCandyfloss · 27/06/2019 19:31

I think the two child policy is more than fair. Not even sure why we still pay for two.

Contraception is freely available, nobody has to be pregnant if they don’t want to be. People can even abstain if they don’t want any more.

Children come with expenses, if you aren’t prepared to do whatever it takes to cover them don’t have children.

If the children are suffering then the parents need to step up not the state. It’s not the governments fault.