To ask those of you who have gone NC with parents

[Herbert1234]

When you have children, what was the cut off point?

My parents have a long history of being lovely and then being horrid and really going in at me over tiny things. I'm fed up with it. It kills me every time. But I can't find the strength to go NC because I have a DS who is 1 loves his grandparents to bits. And they're great with him. But they're so bad for my mental health.

Does anyone go NC but still manage a relationship between their children and their parents?

Sorry for the late night rambling, very upset and confused and need a bit of guidance as to what's best.

@Fucket im so happy it all worked out for you and can't imagine the strength that must have taken. If anything yes, that is something I worry about. Them dying and me having regrets.

The more I think about this the more I'm confident I want to go NC with my sister, but perhaps try LC with my parents and try to change how their behaviour affects me. I need to develop a bit of a thick skin and realise I'm an adult now, with my own family and I can call the shots just as much as they do. I don't have to reply to their messages full of abuse, I don't have to answer any questions I don't want to and I certainly don't have to do anything I don't want to. If they don't like it they can sod off. I just don't think I'm quite ready for NC with them.

DP and I have decided it would be best to show willing and go to this 'family meeting' with the view to stand up for myself and try out this thicker skin. If it gets too much I can leave. I just know it'll be worse if I dont. I don't know, I'm still a bit muddled and upset.

Thanks again everyone for your advice and lovely words. It means so so much and you're all so lovely and supportive. I'm also going to read that book toxic parents. If I change my mind about NC with parents, I can do it at any point, but agree with PP that the sooner the better for DS sake. I just need to be sure it's the right decision.

Herbert its always such a crap situation to be in, qmd I think it was probably the hardest thing I've ever done, but the freedom now is such sheer heaven. Its like night and day the difference it's made to my life

Do have a look at the long running but they took me to stately homes thread over on the relationships board too when you get the chance.
There are some truly amazing and caring posters who have been an absolute rock for so many in this shit place. x

I could have written your post. I'm not NC but very low contact. It maintains my sanity.
However as a result my kids have no real relationship with them and that's ok.

After an incident one Christmas I would never leave my kids alone in a room with them, let alone for the weekend of an evening.
Aggression. Threats of violence. Unreasonable expectations. Manipulative. Emotional blackmail. Was truly awful. Brings me out in a sweat thinking about it.

It's all very sad. I've had to mourn for the GPs my DC should have had but don't.

I'm getting used to it but sometimes feels a little lonely compared to other people with active GPs and kids

I agree with Fucket - my dad is still alive, but we thought he was dead for a while (long story - deliberate part of his drama) and I simply didn't really care. It has been a long time for me now, so I genuinely don't give a shit any more - I don't spend hours composing imaginary emails, or wishing I could make him see what he has done, I just think of him as a sad, delusional old man who could have had a lovely family but chose to pursue his own goal of being 'right' instead. I almost hope he's happy, because it's all been such a waste otherwise, but I actually really don't care what he's doing or how he feels because it's no concern of mine any more.

Well, what you can do is see how they respond when you do start with boundaries etc and if they keep overstepping it then maybe go NC in time. The control you have is in how you respond, you are right there. And they will learn, like children, that if they behave badly you won;t tolerate it.

Also I don;t know if any others find this useful but something I do is in my head call them by their first name...instead of 'mum' or 'dad'- somehow helps in a way!

You guys are definitely helping me feel a lot stronger.

Update: my brother has tried to talk some sense into my Mum and she's gone off to the caravan on her own. He's annoyed that she won't listen to anything (he actually seems to be in my corner for once!) And so she's gone off.

I can't help but be really worried about her. But I'm guessing that's what she wants. She struggles with mental health and has a chronic pain condition and I worry about her doing something stupid. Surely she wouldn't? Part of me wants to go to the caravan and talk to her but I know it won't work. It'll just be I haven't slept for days, my heart condition is worse because of you. All that sort of stuff. My dad's going the caravan later though so at least she won't be on her own.

She didn't like hearing what your brother was saying so she has took herself off so everyone will be very concerned about her and run to check on her. Manupilation!!!

Don't be hoodwinked, you're doing so well so far

My brother did similar with my mum and she got really angry- he tried to get her to apologise to me to try and sort things out. I think it made him understand a bit more to be honest.

And so she's gone off.

I can't help but be really worried about her. But I'm guessing that's what she wants. She struggles with mental health and has a chronic pain condition and I worry about her doing something stupid. Surely she wouldn't?

This is narcissist paint by number.

1. Throw a hissy fit
2. If that doesn’t work maybe up it a notch to narcissistic rage
3. If that doesn’t work flounce off. Maybe even dramatically cut contact for a while
4. Make their mental health and well being feel like your responsibility
5. If that doesn’t work invent some sort of dramatic event/Heath scare
6. Call in the flying monkeys

And reapeat until you TOW THE LINE

Once you see the narcissistic behaviour patterns for what they are it’s almost laughable. You also learn to spot a narcissist a mile off in other walks of your life. Quite a handy “steer clear of” radar

OP you really really need to read that toxic parents book, that website I recommended and get yourself some therapy. Preferably from someone with experience in dysfunctional families and does not hold the belief that families must stay together no matter what

Good luck

Also, once you truely understand you are dealing with a narcissist you will realise that you will never get them to see their faults. They will never acknowledge or apologise for their part in it.

So it sort of frees you up from trying to get this from them

It’s very liberating xx

Yes, ay normal person would be thinking what they had done to upset you and trying to think about that- this never happens with this type of person they just turn and try and blame it on you. The blaming the health stuff is typical. Try not to feel guilty as it is not your fault. It is just how they are :-(

Oooh so I'm getting better at spotting it! I promise I'll get round to reading those books. It's just felt fairly full on this week. But I will get around to it. Ideally before we have this family 'chat'.

Thank you all so much for your encouragement and helpful advice. It's so nice having this support network to instill everything and make me feel like I'm not crazy!

Herbert your ma has flounced off. Let her get on with it.

I have been the child in this situation. My father was treated horrendously by his parents growing up but he made the decision to stay in touch with them to ensure their good relationship with me continued. I understand that it was the right choice for him at the time but, from my perspective, it was the wrong one.

I think he thought they wouldn't treat me like they treated him because they were such lovely grandparents to me when I was very young. The older I got, the worse their emotional abuse became and it's only in the last few years that I've been able to go NC with them and come out the other side much stronger and content with my life.

If you were to go NC with them over their behaviour to you please try to remember you aren't depriving him of a relationship with them, your protecting him from one.

*you're

This family chat thing- was of getting you back in line? Sounds a bit dodgy. You don't have to do the 'family chat' you know.

because they were such lovely grandparents to me when I was very young. The older I got, the worse their emotional abuse became

That would be because as you got older, you started to develop your own personality and likes/dislikes, ShartGoblin? Not allowed in narc world. Only total compliance is acceptable and even that is only ever on their terms. That is exactly what I fear would happen to Herbert's DC when the time comes. Your decision to go NC was the only sensible one but it's not without pain.

If you are the child of a narcissist, please please protect your own children by removing them from harm's way.

But what I don't understand is why they're so loving and forgiving to my other less than perfect siblings? Surely a narc is just shitty to everyone?

Agreed though, no doubt when other GC come along (won't be from us!) DS will be cast aside in favour of the more favourable siblings' children.

This family chat would generally be an opportunity to have a go at me all over again. However this time I'm adamant it is the last one I ever do and I'll be making it very clear that they can either like me or lump it. I'm not bowing down to this anymore and that was the last time they will reduce me to tears or treat me like shit. Whether it'll go that way who knows. They have a way of causing me to regress back to a child almost and make me feel very vulnerable and I struggle to get words out when they start

But what I don't understand is why they're so loving and forgiving to my other less than perfect siblings? Surely a narc is just shitty to everyone?

No narcs like to cast people in roles. Golden child vs scapegoat

You sound like you’re the scapegoat. I would say unfortunately, but actually usually the scapegoat - once they recognise the dysfunctional dynamics at play - is usually the most emotionally healthy. Narcs can have several golden children and or scapegoats if you have more than 2 sibs

In my family my DM cast my DSis as the golden child because she reminded her of herself: extroverted, popular, outgoing, sporty, and also possessed qualities that my DM would have surely liked for herself: a natural academic high flyer, successful etc

Narcs like to use their children as a mirror image of themselves to reflect back their best view of themselves so they can attribute all the best qualities to themselves being such amazing parents

My Dm was blind to the fact my DDis was also very very selfish, spiteful and lacked empathy

DSis not DDis

Anyway, in my case I was the scapegoat. Treated less favourable than DSis is subtle and not so subtle ways.... examples: she was allowed contact lenses from year 9... I had to make do with glasses until I could afford to buy my own contacts at 18.

We were each given cars. Very generous. Except hers was a pretty nice one which was worth about £1500 when she sold it. Mine was an old banger that cost about £500 and when I sold it, it had stuff wrong with it so I made £50 back after the garage had fixed it. She also moved abroad before hers was sold and I asked DM if I could have her car since she wasn’t using it and I was still a skint student. I was told no it needed to be available in case DSis ever came back to visit (she very rarely did) and so it sat un-used in their garage while I struggled on in my old banger.

They used to “borrow” money from my savings account too and never pay it back etc. Just general crap like that which of course adds up to a lot over a whole childhood

I was never encouraged at the things I was good at: Art, drama, singing and in fact actively discouraged against them. I never understood why.
Now I look back as an older ahem wiser, adult in early middle age I can see that actually DM was a bit jealous because I was good at things that she likes to think of herself as being good at and couldn’t stomach the thought of being “outshone” by me.

I was also used as DMs sounding board/confident while she used to go off on her narcissistic ramblings about how wronged she’d been by everyone. Saddling me with a load of adult guilt that I wasn’t really old enough or emotionally equipped to process.

Anyway, I’ve rambled on enough.

I hope that helps you in some way and maybe helps you reflect on your own upbringing

Just read he car example back and realise it makes me sound spoilt and entitled. I’m really not. It’s hard to get subtlety across on mn I find

That website daughters of narcissistic mother has an excellent article about plausible deniability when it comes to narcs

About how it can be as subtle as an “innocent” comparison to someone else, or even just a look, to put you in your place and let you know you don’t quite measure up. The car was just one of many many examples I thought of off the top of my head.

In the future when we help DD and DS our with cars/house deposits etc you’d better believe we’ll make sure it’s equal

I’ll see if I can find the article as it explains it better than I can

Once you see the narcissistic behaviour patterns for what they are it’s almost laughable

Totally true!

Once I disengaged and stopped reacting my DM would fly through steps 1-5 really rapidly.

I would then call her flying monkey in and tell them 'she's off on one' before they were called to me. Helped loads!

Boundaries and more boundaries, I'll keep repeating it...

I went NC with my mother about 18 months ago and honestly wish I’d done it sooner. It’s so much better for my mental health. As others have said just because she acts all grandmotherly on the occasions she sees your DC it doesn’t make a good person or good influence.
My mother used to be very over the top with gifts etc but wouldn’t respect boundaries and would make snide comments etc. Still exchange the minimum of cards and she sends Xmas gifts via a family member which mostly go to charity shop. My eldest DC actually commented out of the blue a while ago that he’s happier now that he doesn’t have to see grandmother as she’s not a kind person.

Surely a narc is just as shitty to everyone

Not at all, Herbert1234. As others have said, there is an appointed golden child who can behave any way they like but it doesn't matter - they are still adored (albeit at a price). And there is the scapegoat, who can be kind and decent and generous and helpful but it still doesn't matter - they are still the scapegoat. A narcissist usually has both in their life but one thing is always certain; even if there is no golden child, there is always a scapegoat.

There are seven basic traits of narcissism - Google them - but a narcissist only has to demonstrate five of them. From my own experience though, here are some traits that you might recognise:

1.	Divisive: plays favourites and "divide and rule" within the family. 
2.	Dismissive of anything outside their own direct knowledge or experience. This includes solid facts that contradict their views or opinions. It also includes experts (such as GPs and hospital consultants) whose advice is not what they wanted to hear.
3.	Can be generous - but the generosity comes with a price tag. You "owe" them, and they might attach all sorts of conditions to their gift. 
4.	Easily bored, especially when the conversation veers away from their favourite topic, i.e. themselves.
5.	Suspicious of other people's motives, including those of family members but particularly outsiders.
6.	Secretive. Likes to control family news. Also known as triangulation.
7.	Gaslighting. "You're making things up" or "It didn't happen, or if it did, it was a joke" or "You are being over-sensitive".
8.	Lack of empathy. This is the big one, the dead giveaway. They can feign it, but not for long, and certainly not if it means putting someone else first. In fact, they can be openly dismissive of other people's suffering and experiences ("Stop feeling sorry for yourself! Lots of people have cancer. They get over it. It's no big deal. I have arthritis but you don't hear me complain!")