To ask those of you who have gone NC with parents

[Herbert1234]

When you have children, what was the cut off point?

My parents have a long history of being lovely and then being horrid and really going in at me over tiny things. I'm fed up with it. It kills me every time. But I can't find the strength to go NC because I have a DS who is 1 loves his grandparents to bits. And they're great with him. But they're so bad for my mental health.

Does anyone go NC but still manage a relationship between their children and their parents?

Sorry for the late night rambling, very upset and confused and need a bit of guidance as to what's best.

I'm NC with my mother and two siblings (father is dead). I still have a relationship with a third sibling, who is themself NC with our mother and LC with the two others.

I was NC with the siblings first. It took me a long time to realise that the toxic relationships in the family were my mother's doing, as she kept us all at arm's length from each other so no one could ever collude with anyone else against her (as she saw it). That left her free to spread lies and conflict between us. The last straw in our relationship was when she realised my relationship with the third sibling was actually pretty strong and that if she wanted to do either of us damage she'd have to stand up to both of us at once. That was the beginning of the end and going NC was pretty easy after that and the best thing I've ever done. Life is so much less stressful now.

But the point where I realised she was Toxic Person Zero in the family was when I saw her in action with my children, playing them off against each other, cutting them down to size, making nasty remarks about one in the hearing of another etc. When I only had one, I would have said she was a lovely grandmother too, but as soon as there was more than one and they were old enough for her to mess with their heads I saw her in a whole different light, and one which suddenly made sense of the past. It was a real red line for me. If I can do nothing else for my children, it's that I want them to be close enough that they will be there for one another after I'm gone.

If you only have one DC, it will be less obvious ime, but as soon as you have more DCs, or there are other GCs via your siblings for her to compare, contrast and play favourites with, I think your perspective will change and it will be easier to go NC swiftly and decisively.

for you. Toxic parents cast a very long shadow.

Thank you all so much for giving me so much advice and support. It's really helping me see that I can do this. My brothers just been around to try and talk to me about it all. He wants us all to sit down and talk but I'm terrified of another character assassination. Anyone have any petals of wisdom? Should I do it? Should I not? I don't know what to do. If I don't I'll look like the bad guy. If I do I'm just opening myself up to a barrage of abuse

No, all sitting and talking would not help. Your brother needs to understand and not be talking back to your mum- mine tried this also (brother's wife in my case)

He says he's fed up of it all, which I can fully understand. It must be so rubbish for both my brothers. But he doesn seem to get how fearful I am of a situation like that. He also thinks that he can stop my parents from saying horrible stuff, but he won't. And can't.

Only read about 1/4 way down but I think you need to consider this statement:

Too toxic for you (an adult)? = too toxic for a child

You are not depriving your DC of a living grandparent relationship if they are not lovely people

Myself and my DC are NC with PIL and have been since DD was 12 months old. It helped that we moved overseas when she was 7.5 months. However, I was never happy with her building any kind of relationship with them which was what made me pull away in the first place. DH then revealed some pretty shocking childhood revelations and that was it...! Over my dead body are they ever seeing me or the Dc again. Luckily DH agrees and has told them this very clearly. He is LC with them.

My own parents are kept at arms length with the children and carefully managed to keep the interaction positive. Any hint of anything untoward and I would pull away. They know I am NC with PIL and I think this helps keep them in check.

Be prepared though, going NC is very painful for everyone and not without implications... so you and DH need to be rock solid on your agreement.

Read up on the website daughters of narcissistic mothers and I would highly recommend the book Toxic Parents. You need to be prepared for the enivitable flying monkeys/health scares etc etc to try to reel you back in.

No chance, they have never even met DS and never will.

www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/narcissistic-grandmothers/

Anyone have any petals of wisdom? Should I do it? Should I not? I don't know what to do. If I don't I'll look like the bad guy. If I do I'm just opening myself up to a barrage of abuse

Just saw this post. You just need to “not care” what anyone thinks. Know that you are doing right by your children and that’s all that matters.

MIL probably badmouths me all over the town where we grew up. I couldn’t care less. If people want to judge they will. I can tell change that and I’m not going to betray DHs trust to explain why we’re NC. The only people I will ever have to answer to are my children and I can look them straight in the face when they are older and explain exactly why they never met their grandparents

What I mean is, you don’t need to justify, explain, defend or seek approval from anyone else

Most likely with dysfunctional family relationships you will never get it anyway

So stop trying

If your brother wants you to sit down and talk about it he clearly doesn't have even a shred of understanding or respect for you and the abuse you've suffered.
DO NOT let him mess with your head. If he genuinely loved and cared about you it would be your parents he's speaking to, backing you up.

The thing with toxic, abusive people is that they play the victim, and get other people to try and convince you that you're in the wrong/making a mountain out of a molehill. Its just another tactic. Ignore it and stand firm, you are making the right decision for the right reasons, to protect your child and ensure they have a life free from the abuse you suffered. Anyone who can't see that and tries to convince you otherwise is just another flying monkey

Sorry, meant that your brother wouldn't be advising all sitting down. Abusers don't change when everyone talks, that just feeds their narcissism and gives them a platform. Leopards and spots.

The other thing to be wary of is if you don't go NC now, your parents may try and go to court and force contact with your DC. I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but from what I understand from friends is that if there is an existing relationship between GPs and GC they can acquire contact through the courts.

Now you would probably be able to fight it, and certainly their abuse of you is reason to fight it, but the longer you have contact the less favourably it reflects on you, from the court's point of view.

Very grim to consider but don't want to be blindsided by that one, and who wants the stress and hassle and fear of it?

Thanks everyone. I guess I'm thinking the same right now. It's just opening myself up to more hurt and giving them license to drag me down further. He doesn't get it at all. He's trying to act as mediator and fully expects us all to come out of this hunky dory. I haven't mentioned going NC to him. He has good intentions.

I guess my underlying issue is, the more I think about it all. Is it actually abuse? Is it narcissism? Or am I just over reacting or even worse, am I the problem? Do I behave differently when I'm with them that makes me an immature, selfish, liar? But how could I keep that under wraps from DP and my life long friends? I guess I can't actually accept that it's not me and it is them and it's abusive.

I feel awful, I've just been speaking to future MIL about it all and I feel I shouldn't have because it's just going to make a rift between the two families. But it was nice to talk to her about it and she's very lovely and understanding.

We are NC with my in-laws. (Well half of them - FIL and StepMIL. We still have a good relationship with MIL and StepFIL).

We have 2 DCs (4 & 2), and are expecting DC3.
To cut a long story short, FIL was very weird about the idea of becoming a grandparent when we first told him we were expecting DC1. He’s made absolutely no effort in the last 4 years to be a grandparent at all. I can count on my hands the amount of times he’s seen the DCs in their lives and those visits have only happened because we have travelled the 2 hours to him. DH and I have lived together for 6 years and he’s been to our house twice in that time.
He’s never once picked up the phone to ring and ask after the DCs.
StepMIL is just a self-centred cow. She manages to make any possible scenario all about her and sod anyone else or their feelings. FIL is well and truly smooshed under StepMIL’s thumb and will just go along with everything she says. He was meant to be coming on a “let’s patch things up” visit about 6 months ago, but phoned that morning and said “The other half has informed me that I’m busy today”, and that was that.
He’s chosen a woman over a relationship with his son and his grandchildren, which to be honest isn’t all that surprising because it’s what he did to DH throughout his childhood too. He would rock up and be the fabled “Disney Dad”, then fuck off again as soon as he shacked up with a new woman - which was very frequently.
He’s an absolute waster, and he doesn’t deserve my husband or my children. That’s how I deal with it. I tell myself that someone like him doesn’t deserve my children’s time or affections when he can’t manage to reciprocate those things

I spoke to my MIL and she understood- turns out she had a similar mother herself. Her advice to me was 'just ignore them and do your own thing'

With the brother- mine got a bit caught in between also (SIL seemed to want us to 'fix it') and I just told him it was between me and mum really and he didn't have to get involved.

they will try to win your DC over to them, and create a rift between you and your DC. You might find you have a 14/15 year old that leaves to go and live with them and barely has contact with you. By the time you realise what's happening it's too late

This happened to me.

Yes mine keep writing to the DC inviting them to visit etc, even though they live miles away and not in contact with me for years. I find it upsetting. Weirdly my brother also does not seem to see it the same way.

e's trying to act as mediator and fully expects us all to come out of this hunky dory. I haven't mentioned going NC to him. He has good intentions.

No, he doesn't. He has selfish intentions. He wants to maintain the status quo, probably as its easier for him to stay in the FOG then and not address things himself. He's happy to throw you and your DC under the bus to not rock the boat as its easier for him.
Think about this yourself, if your brother was frightened, worried, upset and stressed, would you be concerned about "mediating" or would you be trying to help him?

I guess my underlying issue is, the more I think about it all. Is it actually abuse? Is it narcissism? Or am I just over reacting or even worse, am I the problem? Do I behave differently when I'm with them that makes me an immature, selfish, liar?

No, no, no!!! It is not you, they just want you to think that so that they can control you. They're gaslighting you. Its abuse, as much as it hurts to acknowledge that, seeing it for what it is and stripping away the lies is an important step. It is truly shit though

ktjerl I'm so sorry

This is a good article, the website abso mentioned is excellent too.

psychcentral.com/blog/6-tips-for-cutting-off-contact-with-narcissistic-family-members/

This is only a short article but its helped me hugely with my NC situation.

blogs.psychcentral.com/knotted/2016/06/toxic-mom-going-no-contact-5-things-you-must-realize/

My 'cut off' point was far too late. It took my mother telling then 7 year old DS1 that he was ugly and stupid, and his TWIN brother, that he was handsome and clever right in front of me for me find my balls and say no more. I couldn't even confront her then to her face, I had to send a cowardly email later.

In typical narcissistic rage (I know now!) , she disowned me (and my DC) and got the rest of my family to do the same. I have a similar psych diagnosis as PaperFlower. It took a lot of therapy to accept that I was my very dysfunctional, but oh so well to do, family's scapegoat. I was sexually abused by an older golden child sibling and blamed for it, blamed for a kitten dying as an 8 year old after my mother poisoned it (unintentionally I think), and used as stress relief by the whole family which included being beaten up by siblings with my mother's blessing.

My blood still boils sometimes that I was stupid enough to ever expose my DC to them at all. My older DD was really affected by the loss of her cousins who totally ostracised her.

Really OP if they were toxic to you, there's always a potential for them to be toxic to your DC. It's hard and there is a complicated grieving process but we are better off without people in our lives who mean a lot to us but who don't share that view.

No, I think a 'mediated' family meeting would be a very bad idea for you, because it would just be a different manifestation of the family structure that acts as scaffolding for the toxic behaviour. The point - about both the toxic behaviour and the use of props like a meeting - is to keep you in your place or your role within the family, which as far as I can see is that of punchbag. There is only one way to escape that role, and that is to refuse to engage with anything that involves telling you what you should do. I'll say that again slightly differently: the only way to win this game is not to play. It took me a really, really long time to learn that lesson, so in all likelihood you'll get sucked back in a few times before you learn it for yourself. The important thing is that you're asking these questions, which is the beginning of the lifting of the fog.

If I don't I'll look like the bad guy. If I do I'm just opening myself up to a barrage of abuse

Herbert1234, you are already the "bad guy". You are already the one who bears the brunt of your mother's temper, even though you are not the cause of it, and can never be the cure for it. Think about all the abuse she's given you to your face. Now imagine what she already says behind your back - and especially to your siblings.

Let me ask you this. Do you and your siblings have a healthy relationship with each other? Or do you have fractured sibling relationships? And if it's the latter (that's what my money is on), how much of that is down to your mother playing divide-and-conquer? Why do you think she does that?

He has good intentions.

I'm with EatenbyDinosaurs on this. No, he doesn't. He doesn't want you to rock the boat by standing up for yourself because if you do that, your mother will fly into a rage and he would have to bear the brunt of that. And in his world, it's your job to be scapegoat. That's the role she has assigned to you. Heaven forfend that he should have to deal with her instead.

Please look up the website Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers. And then please go and look at the Stately Homes thread on here. You will see countless examples of your mother's behaviour (and your brother's) on there. Stately Homes has been a lifesaver for me and I hope it might be the same for you. For the sake of your DS, please do it.

OP remember (or decide if it hasn't been true until now) that you are in charge of your life. You are an adult and you get to choose now who you see and when, what you will and won't tolerate, and (with practise) who can and can't hurt or manipulate you.
If you would feel it might be beneficial to meet the family and observe them coolly and play emotional bullying bingo in your head, then do it.

Narc bingo: Have a score card: who's first to anger, tears, who won't let anyone else speak, who refuses to give you a chance to say anything, who is furious at the very first tiny indication of criticism of their behaviour, who belittles, denies or ignores all your memories, emotions and concerns about how family life is. Who is 'too upset' to hear everyone out. Who ascribes roles to others of scapegoat, golden child, enabler, flying monkey etc.
It's all quite informative and amusing to watch once you can feel detached from it, but you do need to develop nerves of steel.

If you don't feel ready for this meeting, or simply don't want it, you don't have to have it and their love and appreciation of you should not at any point depend on whether you agree to it or not.

My parents went NC with my GPs (DM's parents) due to my GF making a pass at me. My DM and her sisters were abused by him but she has never been able to talk about it/deal with it. It runs too deep and has affected her MH.

My younger DSis resented that she had no GP and that my DM couldn't explain why. She is now NC withy DM, probably due to a few behaviours but I feel they all link back to DM's abusive upbringing.

My DSis just can't accept that when she was 16 my DM couldn't explain it.

The reason I'm mentioning it is that I have no idea where my DSis' need for GP comes from as she hadn't known any. I suppose I think, in view of this, that your DC could see their GP unless they do start to mistreat him or mistreat you in front of him. Perhaps it is worth talking to them one more time and telling them that if they continue to mistreat you then you will not allow your DS to be a part of their lives. Maybe they can change. You might just both need to properly communicate.

OP I don’t know if you are worried about, “what if my parents die and i deprived my children a relationship with them?” Perhaps my experience may help you.

I went NC with my mum 5 years before my first child was born. I actually wept and cried buckets because I finally realised I was never going to get the mother every child deserves, she would not be at a wedding and she would never know any of my future children. And I think I went through a kind of grief. I knew there was a good chance mum would not live a long life for any make-up moments. Anyway my mum did die about 2 months before I conceived my eldest. I have had not one moment of where I have wished she was around for them to have met her or known her. My over riding emotion still is relief. I know it sounds callous but I have been spared this horrible anxiety over what is the right thing to do. But I do not feel guilty for feeling this relief. of course I am sad she never sorted herself out but honestly all the crap she put my family through I’m so glad to be raising my children away from this drama.

So perhaps you need to learn to let go of the hope of a happy family. It’s probably never going to happen, and don’t attach any guilt for yiur children, they can’t actually miss someone they never met/remember.