To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

[Cringemum]

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

the same can be said for a late term abortion except with the abortion somebody then has to tell her that her baby has died.

Well no one has to say the baby died, she probably wouldn't be able to comprehend that either. Surely all they would need to say is there is no more baby? That's got to be easier than saying; yes you had the baby, no you cannot ever see it again and its been taken away to be brought up by someone else. See I can make it emotive too if I chose the right words.

What's the petition, OP? I would like to sign it. Are we allowed to share petitions? If not, could you PM it to me?

Yes, it was aimed at you. I'm not sure why you think it's any different to question the decision made by any court in any country.

Because other countries have different laws, and I don’t agree with those laws. My views on a country’s courts enforcing unjust and harmful laws have no bearing on my views on this country’s courts, where I don’t consider the law to be unjust or harmful.

Don't you think there are people in the US who are similarly satisfied as you are in the case that justice has been done when women are forced to continue their pregnancies?

I’m sure they are, what’s your point?

Don't you think they're using the same excuse as you - the judge must know best?

God, you must be able to see how these things aren’t the same?!

In (some states in) America, 8 year olds are forced to carry their pregnancies to term even where doing so will cause them irreparable physical and mental harm, because the government has taken an ideological stance that abortion is always wrong, whatever the circumstances.

In this case, the woman isn’t being forced to undergo an abortion because of an ideological stance that it’s always right to abort babies. It’s because the opinions of many experts / medical professionals state that she can’t make the decision for herself, and terminating is in her best interests.

You see how those are different, don’t you?

If no one has to say the baby has died because she won't get it, why doesn't someone do the same thing after an adoption?

OP the women have emotional scars that this woman will not neccessarily have. When you have capacity as an adult you can experience long term emotional distress from this, but you cannot know that an adult with this level of LD will suffer in the same way, because they are not the same. If this woman will never mature past 6-9 years she will not have to deal with the same adult feelings 10 years down the line as an adult with no LD who has a late termination

I am not the same as this lady with LD so my thoughts and feelings differ, as do yours. You are projecting how she might feel by how YOU feel

Also women feel uniquely individual due to their circumstances. I was raped, some pregnancies end due to abnormalities, these result in different feelings due to the circumstances. I was traumatised by being raped, not realising I was PG until it was so late so blaming myself and having to go to school afterwards as much as the actual procedure itself.

For all we know this woman does not want the baby she just doesn’t like hospitals. You don’t know any of the facts so we can’t speculate

I'm aware that her mood disorder isn't the reason for the ruling, but a forced late term abortion is bound to have a huge physcological impact on anybody let alone somebody is already emotionally unstable. This decision may well push her over the edge.

Do you seriously imagine the judge hasn't had evidence and argument on all that and taken it into account?

We don't know that a different judge would have made the same decision. You can say that it's likely they would, but how can you know for sure.

There's a Court of Appeal available for that. A case of this nature would certainly have been fast-tracked. So far as I know, we haven't heard anything about an appeal being lodged?

It's a clear breach of the woman's human rights glossed over with the reccomendarion that it's in her best interests.

If you believe this has been "glossed over" you are forgetting all the information you were given about the process on the other thread. There will have been a lengthy hearing at which everything will have been explored very carefully. The mother had one of the best barristers around currently practising in this area of law: if you really think he will have allowed anything to be "glossed over" that is really highly offensive to him.

Well as the baby is already 22 weeks and would be viable outside the womb within the next few weeks I think she should be allowed to continue the pregnancy supported to term if she and her mother have expressed a wish to do so.

It's not clear that she has expressed this wish. From what has been reported, what she wanted was to keep the baby, which is a different matter and, in practice, highly unlikely to happen even if she did give birth.

This is taking me back to the horror that was the Alfie Evans case. People on the internet with no understanding of the law, and best interest decisions. But hey we live in a society where we've had enough of experts so here we are.

As this young woman doesn't have the capacity to consent to sex she has been placed in a situation against her consent she doesn't have the capacity to decide on.
There are no good outcomes in this situation but a judge following the law with all of the relevant information in front of them stands the best chance of making the least worst decision.

A petition? Are you kidding me? Random, uninformed people who don’t fully understand the little information they do have about the case have the gall to think they know better than an impartial judge who has access to all the information and the medical opinions of the doctors involved?

You are so right Gingerpaleandproud. Depressingly right.

Well like you and I don't agree with that decision, I don't agree with this decision. And it's not because I have pro-life ideologies either. It's because I am categorically opposed to forced terminations. And whether a judgement has been made to order one or not matters not one iota to my belief that this is wrong.

She wouldn’t be able to keep the baby even if she gave birth. In any way she will lose the baby. I don’t see how you think it is any more cruel to the woman to terminate than give birth - they are both loss.

Unless this is about the moralities of late termination which I suspect it actually is

It's because I am categorically opposed to forced terminations.

So you would be fine with forced adoption, that would be the other possible outcome in this case?

A petition? She’s probably already had the termination

You need permission to take a case to the court of appeal.

I have to go out but I'll check back in when I'm home so people don't think I'm flouncing

@PouncerDarling Sure no problem i will PM it to you x

@HeadsDownThumbsUpEveryone

This is why I think this uproar is about termination, because no one will answer why on earth forced adoption would be any kinder

I'm aware that her mood disorder isn't the reason for the ruling, but a forced late term abortion is bound to have a huge physcological impact on anybody let alone somebody is already emotionally unstable. This decision may well push her over the edge

As would a birth.

So many posters who think they know better than a judge and Social Workers

I believe forced adoptions are sometimes necessary.

I don't believe we necessarily do everything we should as a country to avoid that eventuality. As in, I believe mothers should be given a lot more support than they do currently. But I don't fundamentally believe forced adoptions are inhumane.

A petition? Are you kidding me? Random, uninformed people who don’t fully understand the little information they do have about the case have the gall to think they know better than an impartial judge who has access to all the information and the medical opinions of the doctors involved?

Agree

Having been to the court of protection more times than I can count, occasionally for situations not that dissimilar to this, I find it terrifying just how little the average person understands about the law in this area and how the event of social media appears to have removed the critical thinking facilities of many.

I'm shocked that so few people think it's barbaric to physically restrain and sedate a vulnerable woman with learning disabilities and force her to undergo a late term termination.

She may well have to be physically restrained and sedated if she gives birth. It has happened in similar cases, because the woman concerned doesn't know she's gone into labour, is frightened of the medical intervention involved, runs away, or doesn't seek help when she desperately needs it. Therefore some steps have to be taken to curtail her freedom for some weeks before her due date, and if she doesn't want to be examined or have any necessary procedures carried out, that may have to be forced upon her. When she's already having contractions and in pain, this may well be infinitely more distressing to her than a planned termination.

Do you think that's barbaric?

This is why I think this uproar is about termination, because no one will answer why on earth forced adoption would be any kinder

Me too but I'll continue to ask on the small chance that I find someone to answer why giving her baby away would be better in the long run that to end the pregnancy now.

Thank you, @Cringemum x

I considered name changing for this but decided I could keep it vague enough for it not to be outing: I've had exposure to this sort of thing due to my personal situation.

The thing is: there's just basically not very much if any scope for ethically handling sex and pregnancy in the context of severe leaning difficulties:

They used to forcibly sterilise women with DL and, quite rightly, that's no longer done because it's considered unethical.

They also used to, as a rule, prescribe contraceptive injections and that was hugely controversial as a) it's a medical treatment the patient will normally not be capable of comprehending and thus consenting to but it also b) presumes they will be having sex and presumably can consent to that or it'd be a case for a safeguarding inyervention instead.

Which opens up the whole question of ability to consent which, again, is controversial. Because we're looking at adult bodies with the corresponding hormonally driven desires but minds incapable of comprehending the potential consequences.

And then there's the "let's let them have babies" approach, which - while well-intended - doesn't clear up the ability to consent question at all and also usually won't mean "as many babies as may naturally result from someone not able to control fertility by proven means may naturally end up having if sexually active". So back to all the previous points, plus at least one baby.

It's an ethical minefield, the only viable approach to which, in my considered but non-professional (though informed by exposure to those who are) opinion the one and only even half-decent way of approaching it includes careful consideration on a case to case basis. Which will, inevitably, sometimes mean that someone somewhere makes a mistake.