To think you can't physically force somebody to have a late term abortion?

[Cringemum]

Just that really.

I was following the thread on the feminist board about the 22yo woman with LD's, who is 22 weeks pregnant, and a judge has ordered the pregnancy be terminated against her wishes.

The thread reached the maximum amount of comments before anybody was able to shed any light on my question.

I can't fathom how she can be physically forced to go through the procedure if she refuses to comply.

Could anybody shed any light on how exactly something like this could be enforced short of physically dragging her to the hospital and restraining her.

Horrible, horrible case by all accounts and my POV is that the judge has made the wrong decision - for the mother - I'm strictly pro choice in all situations but this doesn't sit right with me at all.

Many on the previous thread strongly disagree as is their prerogative but I don't understand how she can be made to go through with a termination?

Anybody?

@VivienneHolt

So you don't believe in the absolute right of the state to make decisions about women's pregnancies? That's good because I don't either. I don't agree with this decision any more than I do forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will.

If the woman does not want a termination, the mother doesn't want a termination, the termination would be forced on her, and the pregnancy is already well underway, I honestly think the judge is mad to rule the way she has.

somebody being forced to undergo a late termination that they do not want - because they have LD's. No. She cannot make ANY decision as it is unlikely she has capacity to understand ANYTHING about her predicament.

Your wish, that she gives birth, is cruel. How the fuck would any 6-9 year old deal with that? C-section is an unecessary, invasive surgery. Late abortion is probably the only viable option that WILL NOT cause further harm to her, emotionally or physically.

That you cannot see that does not mean the judge has made a wrong decision or that this is in any way immoral or cruel. It seems to be a hard decision taken in her best interests - and that is without all the nasty conjecture about her mum, the father etc.

@PouncerDarling

"So you don't believe in the absolute right of the state to make decisions about women's pregnancies? That's good because I don't either. I don't agree with this decision any more than I do forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will."

You hit the nail on the head.

She does not have Mild learning difficulties though ...to have the capacity of a 6-9yr old is not Mild...

This case is not about making sure women with mild Learning Difficulties do not have children..

you are using one example to try and create an outrage..

the chances are with an understanding of a 6-9 year old she does not understand pregnancy, she is equally unlikely to understand abortion - therefore any abortion would be 'forced' even if it had been done earlier when a chemical option would have been an option..
so yes i do wonder at her mother as she should have been more on the ball with her 6-9 yr old daughter...and wonder why she did not have contraception of some sort...

but unfortunately she's already pregnant and has since expressed a desire not to terminate.

But she doesn't understand what a termination is or the effects of progressing with the pregnancy. That's why it went to court because she cannot make these decisions as she doesn't understand what she is agreeing/disagreeing with.

It will be a c&d style surgical abortion under sedation I imagine @PookieDo rather than what you're referring to.

but unfortunately she's already pregnant and has since expressed a desire not to terminate.

And, taking into account all of the facts of the case, to which you are not privy, it has been decided that it would be better for the pregnancy to be terminated.

This decision has been made by a court because she lacks capacity.

We have a legal process to deal with cases like this specifically to protect people who lack capacity.

"We have a legal process to deal with cases like this specifically to protect people who lack capacity."

Doesn't mean they always get it right, unfortunately.

And yes I'd be taking the woman overseas. But then I've spent most of my life overseas and would be comfortable doing so

Ah right,let's hope she has endless amounts of money then for her daughter's care,birth etc.

She doesn't have the capacity to consent to a termination. I've worked with people of similar LD and they'd love babies but they aren't able to really understand what that means. I think this is an incredibly sad situation but I think that the judge has made the right call. Much in the same way if, as an example, she might wish to keep a leg which had gone gangrenous as she wasn't able to understand the implications.

So you don't believe in the absolute right of the state to make decisions about women's pregnancies? That's good because I don't either. I don't agree with this decision any more than I do forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will.

I don’t believe the state should interfere in the pregnancies of women who have the capacity to make decisions about those pregnancies but that is not what is happening here. This woman does not have the capacity to make this decision. That is what a team of medical professionals have decided.

This isn’t a case of a woman with capacity being forced to abort against her will - that would obviously be wrong, but it’s not what is happening here. This is a woman with the mental capacity of a young child, who doesn’t understand what is happening to her or what the consequences will be, and who cannot make a choice for herself in this matter.

So you don't believe in the absolute right of the state to make decisions about women's pregnancies?

The courts sometimes take medical decisions on behalf of people who lack the capacity to do so themselves. Pregnancy is a medical condition.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the state', but the government also has to obey the law.

I do understand that she lacks capacity, but unfortunately she's already pregnant and has since expressed a desire not to terminate

You’re contradicting yourself. She lacks the capacity to make the decision in her own best interests, yet you think her desires should be taken into account?

Doesn't mean they always get it right, unfortunately.

Neither does it mean this judgement is wrong. You didn't have the facts and they did, they have made the decision, what makes you assume the judgement was not the right one for this specific case?

So you don't believe in the absolute right of the state to make decisions about women's pregnancies? That's good because I don't either. I don't agree with this decision any more than I do forcing someone to remain pregnant against their will.

Don't be disingenuous. There is a difference in the state determining whether a woman should remain pregnant against her wishes in instances where she has capacity to make that decision/against her own best interests when she doesn't, and ruling that a termination is the best course of action for a woman that cannot make that decision because she has the capacity of a young child.

This decision has been made in her interests, not the foetus'. That is the key differentiation.

Cringemum, do you really fully understand what "lacks capacity" means? It means she doesn't understand what "pregnant" and "termination" actually mean. She lacks the intellectual ability to make choices in her best interests, which is exactly why it's happening in a court. It's awful for everyone concerned but it's very very important that people understand just how limited some adults' intellectual capability is. It goes beyond the "needs a bit of support" that often accompanies people's understanding of LD.

@HeadsDownThumbsUpEveryone

I've explained above why I think the judge got it wrong.

You specified an eight year old in your previous post. So presumably that eight year old doesn't have capacity either. In which case, if a court decides she must carry on with the pregnancy, then the decision must be correct and the eight year old's views are irrelevant?

Doesn't mean they always get it right, unfortunately.

I am much more confident in their judgement than the judgement of random people on the internet without access to the details of the case.

Without actually knowing the person/their support plan, it's hard to say whether it's a good decision or not.

How often does this happen,does anyone know and why/how has it been made public?

I've explained above why I think the judge got it wrong.

How can you possibly know what the judge 'got wrong' if you don't have access to the relevant information?

@Cringemum you said;

I do understand that she lacks capacity, but unfortunately she's already pregnant and has since expressed a desire not to terminate."

So you don't understand what it means to lack capacity. She is not able to understand the consequences of her decision because she does but have the intellectual capacity to do so. There are many reasons why a person may lack capacity. This is not being done to her because she has LD's. It's because of the impact of her LD on her understanding. You are not seeing that, are you?