To think banning stuff from schools is stupid

[SparklesAndUnicorns]

I like to think I'm quite a 'progressive' parent and I like my children to express themselves how they feel most comfortable, they tend to pick and wear what they want over the weekends and I do let them ocassionally change their hair colours with semi permanent safe dyes.
I agree with school uniform but my daughters school doesn't even allow hair bows, she went in with a few braids and bows in the other day and came home with a messy ponytail in and told me the teacher had taken them out. Teacher explained it's against school rules to have more than one bow in their hair. Aibu to think rules like no nail varnish, no hair accessories and no hair dye is just ridiculous rules? How is this going to effect their learning? She is only 6 and I really don't understand the reasoning. Surely if it's a bullying thing then this is down to parenting your child to accept that everyone is different, I can't see how it's a health and safety issue like piercings would be, I do agree to remove earrings on PE days as I can understand that one, but the others seem strange to me. Would love to know others feelings and opinions on this

Aggressive? I'm the least aggressive person going, and if I am a lemon, I'm not aware of it. I was simply offering some support and an excellent course you sound as if you could use. Lemony.

MamamaMadness

I’m quite happily qualified, Mamama. I have my PGCE, my Masters, my degree from a world-class university and ten years’ teaching under my belt. I feel confident commenting on a uniform policy without your help. Thanks, though.

I'm anti-uniform - a stance probably affected by an innate aversion to authoritarianism - in principle. And yes, I'm an educator who not surprisingly places huge value and respect on education. But in my sphere of education individualism, debate and questioning are all rightly encouraged. And the assertion 'if you don't like it, find another school' is missing the point, as school uniform is the UK custom. The school down the road, or in the next village, city or county will enforce exactly the same ludicrous policy of kids isolated because the colour of the stitching of their shoes is 'wrong', or because they have a haircut that doesn't match the school's exacting specifications. Here's looking at clueless education secretaries like Gove, who wouldn't know really beneficial education policy if they tripped over it.

The US and European continent don't enforce uniform as a matter of course. And standards are actually better: Finland being an example of far higher literacy and numeracy achievement than the UK (and whose kids don't start formal education until age 7).

Ergo I'm not a stickler for rule-keeping, particularly in terms of 'etiquette' etc. and legislators interfering with what they don't understand, but nor do I have patience with those who believe The Rules should exempt them personally. Either stupid rules are important enough to stage an open campaign and a strident stance against them, or you abide by them. Claiming special dispensation for yourself is a futile exercise, and a conveys the statement 'I'm more important than anyone else'. You're not.

You were aggressive, and patronising.

No problem. As a teacher, I'm always keen to learn and keep up to date. I think it's one of the most important aspects of education, myself

MamamaMadness

👍

Dress code will depend from school to school. Rules about straps on tops, low cut tops the length of shorts/skirts/dresses, no visible underwear, no inappropriate slogans are very common. What counts as too ‘immodest’ will vary between schools though.

Some schools will also have rules about ripped clothing, leggings, hairstyles, baggy clothing etc etc. Suspect like the U.K., many of these rules will originate from the school banning an item of clothing they’ve had a lot of issues with.

I also think constant comparisons with education in other countries is unhelpful, the lack of uniform isn't the only difference, especially as the top 11/20 countries ranked for Science have uniform, 5/10 for reading, and all of the top 5 for maths.

But then, it isn't the uniform or the lack of uniform that makes the difference.

PP1: There is a lot of research out there that shows strict uniform policy generally boosts academic attainment, so there must be something to it

PP2: That's absolutely not true. There is a wealth of research that shows the opposite.

There is probably research on both sides of the scale (I haven't read anything about school uniform particularly). Usually when a stance is made for something, there will be 'evidence' refuting it on the other side of the coin: as is the case with most sociological/educational research (and there's a large overlap between the two).

IMO uniform is a fairly frivolous area of debate, but it's an exemplar of far more serious issues with the current UK education system. Such as 'quantity of time spent in classroom equals quality of education' (thanks for that, Gove). That's one example in which the opposite is demonstrably true, and the enforcement of that pointless law (parents grovelling for permission to headteachers for taking kids out of school for reasons that seem good to them) is enforced as some kind of 1984-esque money-making/social control scam. Win-win for the national/local governments there.

Another example is the ludicrous methods of literacy teaching all schools are now bound by; i.e. phonics. The Clackmananshire study had an extremely small sample, the subsequent Rose Report changed the entire system of teaching in this country, and the result (as evidenced from the first strategic release) was that the same demographic was being failed by this system of teaching as the last. Added to that is the complication that it's really affected kids' spelling and is bludgeoning to death the idea of actual enjoyment in reading. WTG, government!

And don't even get me started on SATS , GCSE and A' Level ...

What's really infuriating here is our education system being used as a political football and our kids being kicked from pillar to post in order to suit someone's ideological biases. In the meantime, the mantra RULES IZ RULES is shouted from the rooftops.

And yes, since this has happened standards have declined. I know this, as I see at first-hand exactly what comes out of the end of the pre-16 sector. And the quality of the degrees issued there are not what they once were, either.

I think the comparisons can be interesting and sometimes useful - those top countries with uniforms often do a lot of rote learning, and the whole ethos is completely different.

I once read ages ago (in the Economist, can't remember if it was an article or a book review) that countries that produce the most enquiring minds are ones where teaching is very highly regarded as a profession, and with the least amount of tech in the classroom.

Mariel this is my concern too which is one reason why I am seriously considering putting DD into the private sector for secondary - I am fed up with politicians endlessly tinkering with our children's education. Dunno if it'll make any difference though!

I am not a teacher, nor do I have any world-class qualifications, but I did go to two European schools, where lack of uniform was a non-issue. Also I went to a UK primary school in the 80s wearing jeans and t-shirts. Weird how it’s only an issue in the UK.

Don’t teachers wish they could spend spend less time telling year 8 boys to tuck their shirts in?

Don’t teachers wish they could spend spend less time telling year 8 boys to tuck their shirts in?

Yes. I wish they would just tuck their shirts in.

The problem is, any school with a uniform policy at all is going to have some rules about how to wear it. If the policy says black trousers, some kids are going to roll the legs up into shorts. If the policy is shorts, some kids are going to walk around with the shorts hanging round their bum. Some kids want to bend the rules, whatever the rules are.

If parents spent less time arguing about the rules and more time teaching their children respect, I suspect schools would chill the hell out.

Emma I wish people didn't always assume that it's essential that children grow up to know how to wear 'smart' office wear.

If someone told me I always had to tuck my blouse in I'd be pretty annoyed and uncomfortable. In 26 years in offices, however, it's never happened. I'm perfectly presentable, but not formal.

Why do children not get to say 'but I find it really uncomfortable and distracting and I can't concentrate'? It's obvious that when they have the choice kids don't tuck in, which suggests that's the most comfy option.

I think the comparisons are poor, because what happens is people only want to pick and choose certain elements of the other education systems, they also don't include the overall culture of the countries as well as the systems.

Don’t teachers wish they could spend spend less time telling year 8 boys to tuck their shirts in

I just don't tell them to, as it doesn't figure in my priorities If they are comfy with their shirt untucked, good for them. If they want to roll their trousers up or have coloured laces in their shoes, so what?

Respect is also one of those things that can't be taught. Yes, we can guide children in being kind and decent humans, that goes without saying. Why should they respect a teacher that tries to humiliate, or makes racist comments, for example? Why should they respect politicians that lie or cheat? I don't respect people like that, so wouldn't teach my children to either.

Respect is also one of those things that can't be taught. Yes, we can guide children in being kind and decent humans, that goes without saying. Why should they respect a teacher that tries to humiliate, or makes racist comments, for example? Why should they respect politicians that lie or cheat? I don't respect people like that, so wouldn't teach my children to either.

Respect can be taught. It can be lost, but all this “respect needs to be earned” stuff is damaging our children, not helping them. I do not need to earn the respect of a 13 year old I am employed to educate. Yes, if I turn out to be a racist or a liar, I expect to lose it, but I expect their parents to have brought them up properly, to show it until there is reason not to, rather than the other way round.

"I just don't tell them to, as it doesn't figure in my priorities smile"

Ah you are one of those, happily ignoring the rules because it suits you, whilst your colleagues get " but miss MammaMadness doesn't make us".

"Respect needs to be earned"

Another cop out.

I'm with you OP.

DD went to prep which had a uniform. They were also allowed whatever the hell they wanted in their hair (boys too which was very much taken up )

Simple rule - you bring it to school you look after it, it isn't the teacher's job and you aren't to approach the teacher if it gets lost. No issues.

DD is now at a grammar. Simple uniform. Piercings? Sure. Coloured hair? Sure.

Rules? Hair is tied back when necessary for safety reasons and piercings covered/removed for games. No issues.

I didn't say it needed to be earned. I deliberately avoided saying that, as I think respect for everyone is a given. However, respect can be lost, as in examples like the ones I gave above.

Everyone should respect others naturally, if brought up well. It's not a taught thing, it's a natural thing if you're a decent person. Of course a teacher shouldn't have to work to gain respect from their pupils, however if you're a teacher who doesn't respect their pupils in turn, or are degrading/bullying/other nasty traits, then why should you be respected?

Not yet rt whole ft but my DD goes to a pretty relaxed primary school. There is a uniform but no one cares about nail varnish or dip dyed hair or bows. The children are polite and respectful, achievement is high. The children are lovely. I help out a bit on school trips and the teachers have authority whilst also being kind.
The 'feel' of a school is set by the staff and how they interact with pupils and how they allow the children to interact with each other - it's not at all about how many bows a girl has in her hair.
Children need to express themselves and have some autonomy over their own appearance. If school attempts to control everything, those who rebel will do it on a far greater scale than if they'd been given some freedom in the first place.

Ah you are one of those, happily ignoring the rules because it suits you, whilst your colleagues get " but miss MammaMadness doesn't make us

No, thankfully I teach in a school where we are all on the same page and concentrate on actually educating children rather than worrying of their shirts are tucked in, or their skirt has a logo on it

"It's not a taught thing, it's a natural thing if you're a decent person"

It most definitely is a taught thing, being a decent person is a taught thing. It is of course, one of the reasons that we send children to school, not heard of the hidden curriculum?

IWannaSee - sounds exactly like my school.