To think DD should be allowed to go on DofE expedition?

[Passthedamncoffee]

DD is currently in year 10 and is doing her DofE silver award. She has been having some issues with anxiety and depression, and recently had to go to hospital because of self harm.

Yesterday the school said that she’d be fine to participate in the expedition, however today they have said they would strongly recommend she doesn’t participate. This has been rather upsetting to my DD as she has been looking forward to the expedition (next week) and has been working hard to ensure she could complete the award.

FWIW, all medication etc wouldn’t be on her (instead with the leaders), DD had a practice expedition in March, and while she did struggle a bit overall she had a good time, and wants to go again. AIBU to think DD should be allowed to go on the expedition?

00100001 DD did bronze in year 9 and silver in year 10, by summer term year 10 the majority are 15+

Whatever the details, for the school to say yes, yesterday, and no today, is very unfair and hard on everyone. This decision should have been made much earlier or they should have stuck with their first answer (given that nothing has changed overnight)

We organise outdoor learning expeditions for teenagers, and regularly find out that schools have merrily sent someone along with severe mental health issues and not even put a note in their file. Last year we had a kid approach us and say that the boy he was sharing a room with had been talking about his plans to commit suicide on the following day's excursion.
I'm afraid that we have begun to take a much harder line on minimum health requirements, both mental and physical, before children can come on our trips, because the risk to other students and adults is too great. Perhaps that's what happened here. The school was prepared to take the risk, but the third party provider has expressed concern.

lovemusic it's not her choice to make, didn't you read the OP? The school (well, the teachers running the d of e) get to make the call because they are the ones who have to assess, manage and accept responsibility for the risk.

At silver the only third party provider I can think of would be the campsite owner! I think it's more likely that someone at the school said it would be ok, and that person was overruled by someone else who looked into it / thought it through more.

It's a massive risk to take. Theres no way I'd want my child doing it in that state.

DS just did an expedition, he was fine but some struggled with the physical aspect, he is as fit as a flea and will walk 20 miles and think nothing of it. But some of the kids were just not used to that level of exercise and were knackered.When people are physically exhausted it’s really not great for their mental health and everything seems worse. As sad as it is I think the risks are too great.

Did both communications come from the same person? If so, maybe all the paperwork wasn't up to date yesterday. If different people were involved, maybe the administrator thought it was ok but the expedition leader had other concerns once he saw your dd was on the list. Other parents in the group maybe had heard how difficult it was for their own dc in the practice and didn't realise your dd was coming? Just trying to think of reasons that might have changed their thinking overnight.
As a parent my dd would not be going. Too much unsupervision, in charge of own meds, and safety reliant on other group members who will be mentally and physically drained themselves.
I trained my dd's group on Epipen administration and what to do to follow up and only let my dd go because I was confident about the group dynamics.

You have to accept the schools answer graciously.

The teachers that will be running the trip will be pretty much volunteers considering they have overnight responsibility which they aren't paid extra for, and if those adults feel that they don't want the extra responsibility that will come with taking an anxious, self harming child, then that is their call to make and their choice should be respected.

I wouldn't want my child doing it in this state and I'd be very concerned if my child was doing it with a child with these issues in their group.

OP you said yourself she struggled in the practice run and she has been hospitalised since, I think the school are in a very precarious position.

Why would you even contemplate sending your very ill child on that trip?

She can do it when she is in a better place. Now is not the time to put her under extra stress, for all the reasons already mentioned.

I have witnessed teenagers get terribly upset with extreme worry over a self-harming friend (almost in front of them on a couple of occasions). I have been that member of staff who those teens have approached to report their concern so have seen how much they’re affected by it. It’s just not on to put that responsibility on teens in an already stressful and challenging situation, with no adult support very close by, no matter how mature and sensible they are.

Schools take self-harming very seriously and if they feel that they cannot guarantee to keep her safe then she must not take part.

The only shitty thing is changing their mind and leaving it so late but they clearly have their reasons for this. It might not always be something you’re aware of.

I would be unhappy if my teenager was doing this trip with someone recently hospitalised for self harm. That is a unfair responsibility for the others on this trip. I'm sorry neither you or your daughter are being reasonable.

My son is doing his silver too. I can see why it could be tough for someone w mental health issues. Look at it from school’s perspective as they/the leaders are in loco parentis. It’s a safeguarding issue really.,
Is she going w good supportive friends as it can be quite stressful if you get lost/hungry/thirsty etc.
The group have to make the decision to use the emergency phone too if something happens so they would all have to be briefed too.

I wonder if the school feel it’s a lot of responsibility for the other kids in her team?
It’s 3 days 2 nights with just the kids, no adult support in really tough circs.
My dd was on Dartmoor with no mobile reception, they had an emergency in their group and it took someone running to the top of the next hill ( 40 minutes) to get in contact with the teachers who called an ambulance.
But they had to stretcher the child over 5 miles of hills, bog land and it took almost 5 hours to get to the ambulance even though the crew met them half way.

All the kids on the team were quite shaken, but it all turned out well.

The best thing you can do is have a meeting with the decision makers to se what their process has been.

Hope your dd thrives.

Your DD is struggling with day to day life and has been hospitalised recently. Do you think that she will be safe?

What curly says.

Maybe phone d of e Hq and ask their advice. They must have guidance, the school may not be as familiar as them with complex needs.

Lots of schools do silver in year ten so they aren’t doing it in their GCSE year.

I think you are being unreasonable to expect her to go, and for other children to have to be looking out for her mental health.

My dd is anaphylactic. We’ve had to weigh up the risks and and decide whether she could do the expedition.

She’s never had to use her epipen so the risk isn’t at all high. If she had it would have been a different story I think as there is no phone reception. Or phones obviously! The teacher arranged for all her group to have epipen training but even so it’s a risk for me to be sending her off depending that some fifteen year olds will be responsible for jabbing her with a needle in order to save her life. What if they didn’t and she died and those children had to live with that forever?

Op said that her daughter had 'gone to hospital' due to self-harm, not been hospitalised for self-harm.

That suggests that she went to A&E for treatment, rather than being admitted.

I'm sorry to hear that you and your family are going through this OP.

The mixed messages from the school haven't been helpful. It sounds like they agreed to hold her medication initially?

It sounds like the only course of action now is to try to arrange a meeting with whoever is organising the trip to get a clear sense of the risks that they've identified and what would need to be in place for them to be managed safely. Is it her mental state? Self-harm at all? Recent self-harm?

The purpose of this would be for you and them to clarify what the risks are and if they could be managed at this point in time.

If they can't be - which is entirely possible - then focus on telling dd that the reason is that the school want to keep her safe and well. If a child had very recently had glandular fever or a broken leg, they would apply the same caution.

Plan something nice to do with dd, and help her rejig her planning to defer to preparing for the next trip.

Best of luck.

There are long discussions with a number of members of staff over issues like this. It may be, as a pp has said, that one member of staff has given the OK but has then been overruled by - for example - the DSL. When we have taken students with MH difficulties on expedition, the discussions have involved three or four different members of staff. It's taken very seriously because the supervision is remote supervision so staff have to trust that students are able to take responsibility for looking after not only their own well-being but that of the whole team. Students who are struggling with their MH are not necessarily able to do this.

I work with DofE students and we would have huge reservations about someone with your DD's issues doing the expedition.

If she struggled (as most do, it is supposed to be a challenge), how would she get support? And I don't mean a bit of positivity, she could be in a very dark place.

@00100001 Bronze in Year 9, Silver Year 10, Gold Year 12 - works well for us.

Maybe phone d of e Hq and ask their advice. They must have guidance, the school may not be as familiar as them with complex needs.

They will almost certainly say that the judgement call should be made by the staff who know and will have responsibility for the student.

Yes, the change of message from the school will have impacted your dd's confidence in being able to cope with the trip.

For someone who is already struggling with depression and anxiety, there's probably no way for that to be restored at the moment, in all honesty.

At silver the only third party provider I can think of would be the campsite owner!

More and more schools are actually handing over the whole running of DofE (silver award included) to third party providers who run it for them, including the training and expeditions. Due to massive budget cuts that affect workload/timetables/good will etc. and the cost is passed over to the pupils, sadly.
The OP hasn’t specified exactly if this is the case with them but the allusion to ‘checking’ and the quick change in decision does suggest this is the case.

As someone with a lot of experience with metal illness, I can see both sides. It's worth chatting to the school and asking if she could do it the following year if she's more stable. It might be good to sit down with your daughter and say that you've had a long think about it and you agree with the school. However, once she's stable, you've spoken to them and (hopefully, if they agree) she can do it the following year. Personally, I would not mention risk to other students - that is only likely to make her feel guilty right now, which is not what she needs. I would focus on her needs and say you would be concerned that she isn't able to manage her risk to herself at the moment. Use the hospital visit as an example, but explain that if she was having a tough time on the trip, she would not necessarily be able to alert adults in time to help her - just as she could not on that day. I'm sure you know to make it very clear that this is not a punishment and, although it is really difficult, sometimes when we're unwell we do have to miss things we were really looking forward to. If possible, try to arrange something else for that weekend that is fun but where she has you present (or another trusted adult) and where she will be somewhat distracted. If she just wants to chill with a friend then that's fine, but it's not a great idea to leave her alone with her thoughts of missing out.

I suppose, though, that this depends when the hospital visit occurred. If it was a few months ago and she's more stable now, perhaps having begun the medication, then it is worth giving her psychiatrist or psychologist a call and getting their input.

I do think the school has been unreasonable in the very sudden change if they had all of this information already - that can be distressing when you're feeling vulnerable and emotionally unwell. It would be good to calmly bring that up with the school and suggest it's handled differently next time. Did they let you know or your DD? I would have said it would have been better to phone you and talk it through rather than a sudden change voiced to your daughter.