you see THIS was a chav

[Twiglett]

on Sunday went to a local country fair

was watching a bloke with no shirt, tattoos and baseball cap and bad teeth play with his 8 year old and 12 year old

they were chucking hay from the hay bales over each other

saw another bloke point to his little girl, of about 18 months, and say something (couldn't hear what but assume asking him to be careful)

Chav proceeded to f' and blind and scream at the father for about 5 minutes, gesticulating wildly whilst his children looked on with gleeful laughter

father and toddler with mother and slightly older child just got up and left

chav, disgusting foul bloke, ruining it for everyone

we left

I agree with you on most of that theman, good points - but in response to the last bit, are you contending that there is in fact plenty for those "gurriers" to do? While I don't accept or condone the attitude that appalling/criminal behaviour is in any way excused by the "nothing to do" argument, I do think there is a grain of truth in it. I think (for many of the reasons you've outlined in your post, and other region-specific factors too) there IS a problem with adolescents - especially male adolescents - feeling disenfranchised, uninvolved and unwelcome in society. Those gangs of kids you see hanging around railway bridges and shops with their bikes slung in a heap - where should they go? Their parents don't want them at home and there's nothing else provided. Talk to them - many adolescent kids in this country are completely convinced that there is no point in them voting/working/engaging with adults, because nothing they do will make any difference and they have no voice and no chance in life. So no wonder they are angry and bored, and easily become anti-social/criminal.

So IMO while I wouldn't accept this as an excuse for an individual's criminal behaviour, it shouldn't be dismissed as a factor when we think about addressing the prevention of antisocial behaviour as a trend.

Probably bollocks, I am a housewife, not a sociologist . Interesting discussion though.

"ownership doesnt make a 'home'"

i don't mean in the emotional sense.i just mean that if you worked hard for something then you might be more likely to treat it with care, as i said at the start i don't know so when i was asked what i thought i gave theories as to possible reasons and asked for others to inform me or correct me. i thought of the ownership thing because in ireland at least if you compare council estates with private estates there is in general much more rubbish and litter, and i think that might have something to do with not having to work for and buy the house,but as i'm stressing i don't actually know.
and as for posh/well off people acting like scum, yes i know it happens but does it happen as much as in less well off areas? that is why i asked why it is more prevelant or at least portrayed to be more prevelant in such areas.

i accept the mentality is there but in relaity what is there available to "posh kids" to do at 11 o clock on a wednesday night that there isn't to these kids?and i understand what you say about the disenfranchised element as anytime i have heard one of them asked what they would like provided, the general answer is "i don't know" and a poor attempt to express themselves, and i don't mean that in an insulting way , i think some of them genuinely don't know how to verbalise the way they perceive they are marginalised from soceity. i just wonder why in these less well off areas children who feel out of sorts or not heard are so quick to turn to petty crimes such as joy riding and vandalism (i know not petty if you are the victim) when what would be regarded as posh kids do not.

Can't believe the OP caused such debate to be honest. Who the hell knows what "class" they are these days? I know I'm not a chave because I can't afford labelled clothing I used to get laughed at by people in my town for being "stuck up" becuase I went to private school and people at school laughed at me for being "common" becuase my family were poor and I had an accent. People need to get thicker skins if they get personally offended by terms like chav etc being used about someone else.

It seems like Chav is used for 'anyone you dont realy like' or 'people you think you are better than'

I hate the word chav

Well, IME "posh" kids tend to have more extra-curricular interests/access to facilities for sports/musical interests, larger homes, more leisure possessions etc. They also tend to live in areas where there is more employment and there is a higher level of affluence generally, so they are less likely to be growing up aware of a culture of petty crime/low-grade criminality among the adult population around them.

I think you'll find that adolescent tongue-tie/shuffling/mumbling/inarticulacy trancends most social delinations though, unless the child in question is chair of the Eton debating society

WHat is at the root of your argument then theman? Are poor people just shit?

as i said at the start, i'm not arguing that this is the natural order of things. i'm asking why as i don't really understand it.
is it down to the parents?the schools?lack of fear fear of discipline and reprisal? lack of money? lack of facilities?
so i f asking those questions means i am saying poor people are inherently shit then fine.

but as i said i'd imagine it is a cobination of numerous things, and while during my teenage years i would hang about and drink in fields i would never start fights/graffiti/joy ride/actively intimidate passers by or local residents.

it's not your asking of the questions that irks - it's your rebuttal of the answers people suggest, without coming up with any of your own - other than "hmmm, yeah, but these kids really are just shit"

What do YOU think the answers are? I've told you what I think.

the only thing i argued was your point that there is actually nothing for them to do but i'd imagine they pretty much have the same things to do as so called posh kids in the late evening/night when alot of this happens.
i think the the genuine lack of fear of retribution is huge factor. and i don't know if thats the parents or the polices fault or something else.

i think you'll find posh kid also go to parties and get shitfaced - although these are often expensive parties, with expensive clothes etc - rather than local bus stop and bottle of whitelightening.

I think you should rephrase your question as you are generalising A LOT to say "all poor people" ( what constitutes poor?)

if you are asking the reasons for often seen anti social behaviour

i would say it is often down to poor parenting skills.

bad manners and rudeness are classless, think about road users. its always the cocks in the mercs who are nob heads on the motorways.

not very many "poor" kids can afford the sooped up cars with the loud exhaust and the trims and the body kit. so how poor are these kids that actually INVADE my personal SOUND space?

i would say they are affluent working class ( they probably think they are middle class)

god yes, they do - and IME rich kids at boarding school are in even more of a mess because they can afford limitless amounts of drugs/booze and nobody is supervising them properly. At my boarding school (I'm not posh, I was a scholarship kid, honest!) it was bottles of Beefeater gin and lines of coke, not fucking Ice Dragon

I would seriously worry about anyone who really thought 'poor people are poor because they are crap, and they live in shit areas because they deserve to be there'. Sadly it's one of the bedrock of 'principles' Western society was founded on, and it's not going away. Anything which liberates the middle/upper echelons from the tedium of social responsibility is going to be hard to shift. It's a bit like saying "Hitler was a one-off, nothing like that could happen in a normal society"

"I think you should rephrase your question as you are generalising A LOT to say "all poor people" "

sorry i don't think i said all poor people at any point in the thread.from the off i made a point to stress that i was asking why it was more prevelant or at least portrayed to be more prevelant in these areas.if at any point i said all poor people are doing this i apologise.
and it's not the drinking that i am talking about.i went to what would be regarded as a posh school and lived in a posh area growing up.and i went to many parties growing up getting drunk and doing stupid things with mates, and i don't think having a polo horse on my shirt makes it right for me and wrong for someone wearing adidas. from the start i have been talking about thing such as joy riding and grafitti.when i was drunk in my teens it never occurred to me to go and steal a car or start a fire in a field.and as i have said from the start i plead ignorance as to the social reasons why council estates have more incidents of joy riding and visible graffiti and litter and vandalism. so i merely asked people if they had theories on this.bad parenting?lack of resources etc. as i am honestly interested and don't know myself

By Twiglett on Wed 25-Jul-07 12:33:09
I don't think he had any class at all actually

Brilliant

I think it is just like calling a posh idiot a hooray it only applies to a certain class and is a derogatory term but the person himself usually revels in the label!

another thing that gets me is reverse snobbery. it's fine to bash someone and mock them for being posh but if they were to reply in kind all hell breaks loose?

agree, I have to put up with comments like "your fancy school didn't teach you that then did it" from MIL but imagine if I said anything about the (state) school she chose for her son?

in my experience its generally a few bad eggs that spoil it for the rest of us. i live in a council house so of course, no i didnt buy it. but i have worked hard on it and worked to pay for the things ive done to it, and yes i have pride in it. i am annoyed when its not tidy, im annoyed that some of the decorating is unfinished but i havent always the time and/or energy.

i hate the litter, dont drop litter, dont allow my kids to. i sweep the fecking footpath and my bit of road every couple of weeks. i keep my garden nice. (was even commented on the other week by one of ds's friend from school's mother, most of his school friends live in private houses on the very nice estate his school is on) i was so proud!!

both of my kids are nice, not rough, not dirty, or kicked out into the street to play as soon as they hit two. ds has a hobby (karate, not street fighting). in fact, most of houses in this street are nice when you go inside, outside is bog standard council. there's a couple of problem neighbours ive moaned about before but most are really nice and take pride in their properties.

nothing to do with the op actually, more a reply to theman.

i often wonder about these people who think council tenant = scrubber, how many council properties have you actually been in? or have you just watched it on the tv?! good press is boring, people dont want to see/read it...so you will generally, only get to know about the more ahem "interesting" of the council tenants.

i love a good council house thread me (rubs hands together)

but this isn't about council houses is it?

in fact only theman and the last 2 posters have mentioned the word council