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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To say its pointless trying to become a barrister...

153 replies

TruthOnTrial · 18/06/2019 02:46

....unless you studied at Oxford because you simply wont get a pupillage?

OP posts:
merrymouse · 18/06/2019 21:13

Is part of the problem that the demand for barristers is pretty static? I'd imagine that most people avoid situations where they would need a barrister.

GeorgeTheBleeder · 18/06/2019 21:27

Don’t mind me, Omniwuss - I was probably a little sore at being so summarily dismissed by the OP - after recklessly risking my equanimity in trying to be helpful ...

SemperIdem · 18/06/2019 21:29

Clapham you’re not alone in thinking that that response to your, actually very informative, post was quite strange.

ClaphamOmniwuss · 18/06/2019 21:46

Don’t worry George given the rest of the posters are counsel too, they’ll know quite how easily the old ego is bruised...😉

JustMarriedBecca · 18/06/2019 21:52

Solicitor here. Regional but I only instruct barristers from London chambers. Hourly rates are £125 to £600 an hour. I get better value from a specialist at a London set than I do from an experienced generalist regionally who might charge £300 an hour. The London sets, at least in the area of law I specialise in, are all Oxbridge with awards coming out their ears. I don't use juniors from the regional sets. They aren't as good. Poor advocacy and not as client friendly.

bananasandwicheseveryday · 18/06/2019 21:59

I am not a barrister, but do have someone in the family who is. They have a first in their degree, from an OK, but not outstanding university. Went to a bog standard comprehensive school and definitely do not have connections or family money to help out. They worked extremely hard, had to take out bank loans to fund the BPTC and raised their profile with potential employers (chambers) by entering and being successful in several competitions for new and trainee barristers. They have tenancy in their (London) chambers and, so far, their career is going very well.
This is within the past five years.

GeorgeTheBleeder · 18/06/2019 22:09

I escaped a million years ago.

Undergrad Law at one half of the portmanteau, Bar, (I actually had a temp job processing pupillage applications for a few weeks ‘between chambers’ once!) now doing something entirely different at the other half. But I’ve known too many people more recently who’ve remortgaged their houses for a bewildering pipe dream.

TruthOnTrial · 18/06/2019 22:10

George ? I was thanking you for your input as you'd expressed that for you the thread was done.

Was your comment to Clapham 's based on my pp thanking you!? I really hadnt expected to see you again.

I thought you were saying you were off asthe thread was done. Confused

Clapham i was intrigued (off thread though) that you mentioned death-row project work is this because of your location, not wanting to id you,but is that an option in the UK?

OP posts:
OublietteBravo · 18/06/2019 22:13

This is a fascinating discussion. I just wanted to say that there are other fascinating (and lucrative) legal careers available. I didn’t do a law degree (although I do have a 2:1 from Oxford). In fact I have a scientific background - which is essential for my current career as a patent attorney. Nevertheless, I do have the right of audience in court for cases in my area of expertise (I.e. patent law). My training contract was relatively well paid, and these days I earn a six-figure salary working (mostly) office hours only.

ClaphamOmniwuss · 18/06/2019 22:41

TruthonTrial I am England based, but we see applications from people who’ve done various death-row project work in the States. Different legal system, but still showing a commitment to the study and practice of law, and sometimes makes for interesting discussions! We also people who’ve interned in The Hague or have work experience from any number of legal systems around the world - all potentially relevant as to skills they possess and show commitment to the law.

TruthOnTrial · 18/06/2019 22:53

Fascinating discussions, yes! Thanks Clapham

OP posts:
GeorgeTheBleeder · 18/06/2019 23:07

I have no idea how many, if any, commonwealth countries retain the death penalty - but years ago death row appeals to the Privy Council used to be a rather niche area of work undertaken by a very few sets. In those days the PC sat in Downing St - with all the cacophony of Whitehall coming through poorly glazed windows ...

Dickybow321 · 19/06/2019 08:43

This is what you are up against!
Just had a look at her bio. Jesus Christ, is she real?!Shock

Dickybow321 · 19/06/2019 08:50

One would assume that everyone on this thread, who has not declared themselves otherwise, either is or has been a barrister. Surely?

Assuming makes an ASS out of U and ME

bridgetreilly · 19/06/2019 09:07

OP, I'm another who has lost all sense of understanding what your situation is and what you are hoping to find out from this discussion. But I'll just say this, based on your posts here, you need to give up any ambition you have to become a barrister and make a different life plan.

Mississippilessly · 19/06/2019 09:25

eh? A shameless plug for a friend?
Do you understand how barristers work? Barristers are usually instructed by solicitors. Its unlikely that solicitors are trawling MN for barrister recommendations Confused

TruthOnTrial · 19/06/2019 09:56

bridgetreilly you have made a huge assumption there, and i think perhaps not read the thread properly.

Also, unnecesarily rude judgement from you as a result. Anything to contribute though?...no?

Mississippilessly yes, i do know how it works (sol's/barristers); its the barristers self-promo essentially, hence my comment.

There have been some great insights on this thread in answer to the pupillage question i posed, and more bonus material besides, which has also been very helpful.

Thank you for sharing your expertise and providing a peer into some of the workings.

OP posts:
Verite1 · 19/06/2019 10:31

I’m a barrister. Non oxbridge, local comp, no connections. But got tenancy a loooong time ago. Competition was fierce then but calibre of potential pupils now is off the scale!

Cloudtree · 19/06/2019 12:10

OP what exactly is your position?

IncandescentShadow · 19/06/2019 12:52

OP - you know your proposition isn't true. Solicitor here. Not a barrister, 2:1 from Oxford. You would hate me because of all this and because I was sporty at uni, several academic articles published, fluency in a second language, socialised seamlessly with some very socially privileged people and did a Masters degree at an elite Continental university.

But I came from a frankly dreadful school in Scotland (headmaster: "I don't expect any of the pupils from this school to go onto university", argued with the careers advisor who tried very strongly to dissuade me from applying for law and Oxford). Some of us just do come out naturally determined, clever and with not the slightest shred of self doubt or fear, even when a shy 17/18 year old.

There are so many people who are scared to leave their comfort zone and put the effort in. Those who reach Oxbridge are in some way self-selecting because they already have a lot of the other attributes needed. Now, I know all about the arguments about private schools making pupils more confident, but that still doesn't guarantee them Oxbridge and a pupillage. If you share the attributes and really work hard, you can make it. Even now.

There is good reason the bar is so elite. And thank goodness for that. I made the decision to go back to Scotland for the countryside and eventually realised that its just as hard to commute into Edinburgh city centre as London. But the legal profession in Scotland is relatively small and not that well educated. All over the world, its standard for even solicitors to do at least masters degrees before practising; not so in Scotland. It must be the only jurisdiction in Europe where doing something slightly academic before qualifying is considered a negative trait for a lawyer. In order to gain work as a solicitor there, I had to dumb down my knowledge in order not to scare the senior partners. Even so, I still used to have to put up with a certain level of negative comments about it. Perhaps there are a couple of firms where that is not the case but it is mostly so. We all know that an academic background translates well into court work; this isn't considered in Scotland.

Becoming an advocate would have probably been a better choice, even so there are some thick advocates around. A number of them mistake themselves for being brighter than they actually are. You just cannot fill in the gap that postgraduate education at a top university provides with a career spent entirely in a tiny jurisdiction practising in one city all your life. It just didn't appeal.

I probably should have become a barrister, but tbh, the financial rewards aren't guaranteed enough to make it worth my while. I now don't practice at all and run a related business which has earned me at least as much, if not more, than being a semi-successful barrister in EandW. If I go back to practice, I will do so in the European jurisdiction that I did my Masters in, if thats still possible after Brexit. Perhaps Wouters will assume some relevance after all.

Incidentally, there are always ways and means. It currently costs 2000 euros to do my Masters, and the continental universities give students much more access, including socially, to judges. I met judges at the CJEU socially all the time during my time there. There are a lot of conferences and dinners afterwards where its really easy to make useful contacts, as long as you can hold a conversation. That makes getting references much easier. And yes, you do need to involve yourself in moots and student societies or organisational committees - you demonstrate the skills that you will need in places like the Bar by doing so. OTOH if you stay at home to go to your local university, do nothing outside studying at uni, and then expect to present yourself as a candidate for the Bar, you are likely to be unsuccessful. But even getting into do a Masters at Oxbridge is far easier than getting admitted as an undergraduate.

But thank goodness the Bar is elite and the standard of candidates is incredible. There are so many thick lawyers around who have become de-skilled, who prevent other people, often women, from reaching the positions they block. Thank goodness there is somewhere where brilliant, motivated, people can go to have a career that is considered elite.

IncandescentShadow · 19/06/2019 12:54

There have been some great insights on this thread in answer to the pupillage question i posed, and more bonus material besides, which has also been very helpful.

Which newspaper or organisation are you writing for OP, and are you also researching much of the plethora of quantifiable source material already out there, because mumsnet isn't really something to do base proper research upon.

GeorgeTheBleeder · 19/06/2019 13:09

I’d be slightly concerned if the OP were writing articles on entry to the English legal profession without having a basic knowledge of the English university system.

TruthOnTrial · 19/06/2019 13:10

you will hate me !!!

There's an increasing trend for unhelpful assumptions now, thst have led to unnecessary and rude comments.

On the whole this thread has been amazing and ive thanked contributors.

People do research, i have done a lot of research for many reasons. No, i am not in professional media. Not even big in social media!

I trust the comments that those working in the legal profession have provided here.

I consider them valuable, and show exoerience and knowledge that i consider useful for many to see and understand.

They seem fair and reasoned, directed at the query in the OP, and without unnecessary fakse assumptions.

OP posts:
harriethoyle · 19/06/2019 13:24

OP are you going to clarify what your position actually is or just ignore everyone who asks?

TruthOnTrial · 19/06/2019 13:29

I have, thank you for asking.

OP posts: