To say its pointless trying to become a barrister...

[TruthOnTrial]

....unless you studied at Oxford because you simply wont get a pupillage?

As a comparison in the US all attorneys are called to the bar and can advocate in court. I do wonder about the usefulness of keeping the functions separate as in the English system. Seems you need to have personal means (or a massive risk appetite) to go down the barrister route in England.

I have experience of this.

For a small number of barristers in the highest sets, personal wealth will make no difference past the BVC as the chambers offer a good salary for pupillage and all but guarantee a good work stream. For those chambers, it is extremely meritocratic. To get there, you need more than a first - you need the highest intellect, judgment and common sense; excellent confident advocacy skills; and all of this provable through scholarships, prizes, or world experience. It is unthinkably competitive.

For other smaller chambers or regional chambers it’s hit and miss due to the self-employed ‘eat what you kill’ nature of the role. Hard on women to take mat leave. You can have a great life and not work considerably more than in magic circle. Or you could have it very tough.

I’d only advise on the bar as a career if you are extremely ambitious, hard working and the sharpest tool in the box. As for criminal bar - like medicine or midwifery it’s a vocation and you certainly don’t do it for the money.

As to where you got your degree from: obviously there’s a statistical bias towards oxbridge due to the sheer number and quality of candidates. It’s harder to get into, it’s tougher to stick it out. It does say something about the candidate. Nonetheless, a shiny first from Bristol with scholarships, moot prizes etc behind her/him, excellent interview etc can well make it, as can people with other relevant life experience.

5foot5
Law training comprises an academic stage and a vocational stage
Most people follow the route below
The academic stage comprising either:-
i) a qualifying law degree; or
ii) a graduate diploma in law or common professional exam after another degree

The vocational stage
Vocational qualification (college based)
Bar Professional Training Course; or
Legal Practice Course (solicitors)

You then complete your vocational training with a form of apprenticeship
Pupillage in a barrister’s chambers or
Training contract in a solicitor’s firm

You are not fully qualified until you have completed all the stages.

When I did the Bar Finals many years ago the only provider was the ICSL so numbers were limited and they were still churning out more potential pupils than there were pupillages by a large measure.

I cross qualified as a solicitor in the end and have done well. Most of my contemporaries didn’t make it.

There several keys stages already detailed ^thread

From comments so far there is experience of over supply, not just because of take up rates (or conversion rates from student to praticing barrister) but the ability to picked so overly-qualified applicants easily.

Oxbridge former solicitor here (left law a decade ago). Briefly considered the bar but quickly realised not only were you judged on uni + degree level (i.e. Oxbridge + 1st) but even what college you went to. Posher colleges were a shoo-in; newer ones were not.

pressureofaname
Sorry to hear the price paid. I think MN boards are occupied by the barrister widow/ers too!

I hope your health has improved.

DH is a barrister at a top-tier chambers. He turned down Oxford, went to UCL instead - got the highest First in his year, went on to do a PhD, finished in the top 20 of his year during conversion year. Got 3 offers of pupillage but many, many nos.

It is crazily competitive but I really don't believe that non-Oxbridge candidates are seriously hindered.

I’m a solicitor and would have loved to be a barrister. I decided to be a solicitor and then do a higher audience (I can’t remember the exact name) exam. But I didn’t take that route in the end and do non contentious work.

Not that that was an “easy route” I had no family or friends in law and had to worm my own way in. As a pp said it’s very much about who you know.

...and as 1Wanda1 says
far more candidates than there are pupillages and therefore chambers can be very very picky

So although i recognise that you dont weed out any not Oxford [2:1 and above being the qualifying grade], i am trying to gather how many do.

Encouraging to hear some dont.

All degrees are llb?

Please explain why better anywhere.

How a 2:1 oxford is better than a 2:1 elsewhere? Saying a 2:1 isnt always a 2:1 in the same qualification?

I have now left the Bar as in fact getting pupillage, then tenancy, working hard and doing a good job are far from all that is required.

It’s very easy when you’re starting out to overlook the lack of benefits involved in being self employed. When you’re in the middle of having children and your health takes a nosedive things look very different. I loved my colleagues, had some wonderful times

Most of my contemporaries didn’t make it.

These comments are some of the truest things I’ve ever read.

But I don’t think you’ve explained why you’re only talking about Oxford, OP. That’s not a situation I recognise.

I know a criminal law barrister working in London. He grew up on a council estate in Manchester, is black, has (short-ish) dreadlocks/twisty style hair, and has a Mancunian accent. I don't think he went to Oxford but I'm not sure.

Oh and he's from a working-class background.

Gosh...bringing out all the prejudices there Charley

I am interested in whether Oxford led is the case or not.

Its very revealing all the insights shared. Certainly paints a clear picture of how this life can be, which are being acknowledged as a reality by others too.

@TruthOnTrial

You have to have an LLB degree or otherwise you need to do a years GDL which is before the LPC (solicitor) or BAR (barrister).

Mississippilessly

Over-qualifying is no guarantee then for sure.

Thank you much better now I can pay attention to myself!

MonkeyTrap yes, i know. My point was about it seeming that a 2:1 isnt a 2:1 everywhere despite it being all the actual same!

TruthOnTrial - what do you mean? Who's prejudices?

Oh! Pleased to hear you recovered, and im sure you did lots of good work during your time at it!

How a 2:1 oxford is better than a 2:1 elsewhere? Saying a 2:1 isnt always a 2:1 in the same qualification?

Aren’t you being a little disingenuous OP? I’m sure you’re aware that traditionally an undergraduate degree at Oxford or Cambridge requires or has required a damn sight more work than one from any other English university. Which is why Oxbridge graduates gain automatic MA status afterwards. (Obviously this isn’t an invariable law - maybe someone has comparative spreadsheets on effort required ...)

But, aside from the academic demand, people who recruit for this type of high status occupation (particularly those who are ex-Oxbridge themselves) will assume that Oxbridge graduates have developed the necessary interpersonal skills to thrive in their chosen profession. Does this really need spelling out?

I am not, btw, saying that these attitudes are correct - just that they exist and influence success or failure in career progression.

Only 4% of medical doctors in the UK are from a working class background. I don't know what the % is for barristers...

I think there is a fundamental dishonesty at the heart of legal training in this country. People are paying huge amounts for the vocational courses which don’t actually give you a usable qualification. If you don’t then do pupillage or a training contract you are not a lawyer. Given the lack of pupillages and training contracts many people will spend thousands on the course when there is little or no prospect of ever using it.

It was bad enough when the vocational course numbers were limited as there were only the ICSL and the College of Law to go to. Now there are 8 providers I think with a lot more places than pupillages and training contracts.

The tutorial style of teaching at undergraduate level for law at Oxbridge gives a different, and highly relevant, preparation for the Bar - having to defend your arguments in person, in front of and with your peers or with your tutor , is more challenging than writing an essay that is just marked or just passively attending a lecture.