Does a messy home negatively affect a child's upbringing?

[MaryPopppins]

A friend of mine has gone away for the week and as an emergency needed me to feed her cats and let them in and out as her mum is also away and normally does it.

I've only been in her living room and kitchen before. They're both very cluttered, no space on sides anywhere. And lots of collections. But I guess I'm used to it and look past it as kids are normally running round playing and we only tend to pop in for an hour or two here and there.

But today saw the bedrooms and bathroom for the first time. And was really quite shocked and saddened.

(It's a bungalow, you have to pass the kids 2 bedrooms and the bathroom to get into the lounge and kitchen, wasn't snooping. Normally the doors are shut.)

The kids bedrooms were covered. I can't quite figure out how they get into and out of bed. And the bath was piled high with dirty washing and towels. Toilet all brown, even the seat, sink full of bath toys. Every windowsill is full of stuff so they wouldn't be able to open/close curtains etc.

If I'd seen photos online I'd assume it was of mentally unwell people or old people who needed help. (I will admit to being a germ phonic person. Quite obsessed.)

But they're smart, and the kids are smart, quite cheeky boisterous children but they're happy enough and doing fine at school.

Am I blinkered and terribly judgemental and that's a fine way to live? Will it effect the kids negatively?

I'm not concerned for their emotional well being. But I suddenly feel really sad for them seeing where they sleep/are supposed to get clean.

I was lucky to grow up in a very tidy home. My mum is very house proud and maybe I just took it for granted?

I feel like offering help would insult them. They're very capable. Maybe they're overwhelmed?

Yes it can have devastating effects, especially when you realise your house is a hovel, usually when visitors came and DM would rush stuff crap behind chairs, it would be left there and she would refill the area with more crap.
It was the general chaos that bothered me most, cleaning a dirty bowl to eat cereal, never clean socks, or matching socks, crumpled school uniform, greasy hair, parents who don't clean their house usually don't prioritise cleaning their DC.
My own home is clean and organised, the DC always have clean fresh clothes in their wardrobe, no dirty washing hanging around, clean body and hair, somewhere to sit comfortably, stock for school, things were they are meant to be, they live a different life to me.
I teach them how to keep it up, it was difficult for me to grasp at first.

Oh to add, we have plenty of fun love and play in this house.
IME those who rarely clean, rarely play too, they use it as an excuse, it is laziness, illness excluded.

magicfarawaytrees Oi! if you read what I wrote i do lob bleach down the loo thanks!

Any clever chemists moment it's used but it still goes brown in the pan?, what is reacting with what and what does the bleach do to clear it?

Justaboy denture cleaning tablets, 0.86cent in Tesco are great for removing brown stains.

I have a friend with a now grown up child whose home is, judging by The photo scale about a minus 1. I've never seen anything like it. She's obsessive. You feel guilty for moving there. I aways felt sorry for her son. Now hes gone to college he rwvels in mess and she always asks to go and clean gor him. He declines!
I have another friend her house is truly the mist disgusting thing ice seen. I can't bear to go inside.she has your kids, an elderly relative and a large hound. Her house is a death real.a complete fire hazard. She definitely has MH issues too. Her kids are very clever but seem incredibly socially award, they understandably never have friends over, never have even thought He oldest is now sixteen or seventeen.i offered to help. I turned up with two tolls of bin bags and industrial gloves. Her children were ecstatic and went crazy helping. We cleared two rooms in a day. Two weeks later back yo square one.
I have stuff. Lots of stuff. Homeless stuff. But aside of toddler toys ( going in the just built and painted tonight toy box,tomortow) I gave nothing on my floor( oh and the cat basket! I am culpable for several piles of paper, generally letters bills to do etc In my kitchen and have stuff like olive oil out. My house is cleaned thoroughly though every week woth all The skirting curtains etc dusted so I think living mess on that scale whilst not ideal is just about ok( but I'm trying to improve). I've always let my kids roam from thing to thing st will, I do it too, its great from neural plasticity which routines and order isn't and as party types I think we Are that's way inclined.
I think either extreme probably doesn't have the best impact on a child. One hour developmental reasons and one for social and possibly hygiene and health reasons.
If you are germ phobic and date I say a bit OCD ish is the house tired andstained and mesdy or is it unhygienic, dust bunnies, mould,kitchen grime, never changed towels and bedding etc. That's another issue. If it is like that perhaps you could say I had an hour or two and while i was here I gave the kitchen a quick whizz, you know me and my cleaning I cant resist. I actually have a friend that did that at mine when she used to water all my window boxes when we were away. The house was really tidy (and I had a cleaner anyway)(pre kids), she loves cleaning. It was always amazing coming home!! I was never offended. I know what shes like!!

I wish people didn’t assume it must be so stifling to be tidy and clean

Pookie and Butteredghost I fully agree. My house has always been clean and tidy AND I always found time to play and have fun. The two are not mutually exclusive.

I have to admit that my house is probably a 3 from those pictures. I wouldn't like it to be a 1 as that looks horrible and clinical to me but a 2 would be better. It's mainly time but a bit of willpower as well if I'm honest. I don't know how people have time to tidy and clean so much. I do work ridiculously long hours (for not much money so can't afford a cleaner!) Someone mentioned 20 mins a day and we do do that. The dishwasher and washing machine are put on every day, clean clothes put away etc so we do have clean dishes and clothes. And try to tidy up the lounge of all the kids toys and wipe down the kitchen once or twice a week (but it probably wouldn't be great still by many people's standards - think shoving stuff in boxes hurriedly in order to sweep the floor). But fitting in more than that is hard!

My parents were kind of normal levels of tidy but my bedroom was always really messy as a kid so think it's something innate in me maybe? My husband's family is worse than us - their house is probably a 4 - which is why he doesn't really see anything wrong with how we are. And 2 messy people isn't a great combination.

I think it's a bit like dieting in a way. You know how hard it is to stick to a diet and not fall off the wagon? I feel that way about being tidy and cleaning. I'll really clean a room and think, "I'm going to keep it that way" and before I know it we've all slipped back into our old habits and the room's a mess again. And I've heard many people say, "Oh I just can't relax in the evening until the house is tidy!" I don't have that. At all. I can totally relax even when it's chaos around me so I don't have that drive to tidy.

Before anyone panics though my kids are fine and not neglected at all. And they have never had a tummy bug despite our lack of cleaning skills!

In terms of your friends OP, I really wouldn't worry at the moment but maybe keep an eye on her. As a couple of others have said, it's probably scale down the toilet (we have that and despite using industrial strength stuff we can't completely shift it) and she probably just threw the washing in the bath before the holiday.

There’s a huge spectrum of what is and isn’t acceptable, and at both ends there is a potential to affect children a bit negatively. If her children are kept clean normally and are happy then they’re probably ok.

It’s not always stifling to be tidy and clean, but then equally it’s not lazy to have lower standards. I could keep my house tidier, definitely. But I am so limited given that DH and I work full time. Once my kids are in bed at 9pm the only thing I want to do is my hobbies, I’d much rather unwind with my piano or book than have my bedroom as a 1 rather than a 2. It just doesn’t get to me.

One of my best friends growing up lived in a house like this. It was piled with just stuff. We could sit on sofas etc but everything just felt sort of oppressive. I did go and play and we just got on with it but it never felt like her parents cared that much. They loved their kids but their attention was always somewhere else. They were all very bright and it just felt like all their care went into their work.

I only see my old friend via Facebook now. She's an academic and achieving well on that front but her anxiety and depression are clearly still with her. I can't say if it's directly connected but I think that whole ethos growing up was certainly a factor.

My home is like how I grew up. It's only spotless after a good clean. Then it gets a bit of clutter and dirt again so I clean again. I don't make a huge effort to be permanently spotless but everything has a home to go to when tidy time comes. It's a lived in home with young kids.

An acquaintance of mine is a high flying lawyer. Her husband is a lecturer. They have a blissfully happy marriage and 2 equally blissfully happy, successful kids.
Their house is a shambles. Her car is a mobile skip.
None of them is damaged by it. They would rather spend an evening at the theatre than cleaning the toilet.
Can't really say I blame them.
Your mother (and presumably you) showed love by home-making, which is perfectly valid. But its not the only way to show love.
Unless the kids appear to be neglected, which doesn't seem to be the case, or unhappy, ditto, then I would suggest beak kept firmly out

My house is cluttered, lots of collections of stuff and there are dusty sections. Kitchen and bathroom are clean, laundry and washing up always done and hoovering a couple of times a week. Lots of cooking, reading, arts and crafts and hobbies are the norm.
Houseproud friends who would be traumatised don’t get over the threshold. Difference between creative academic and slattern can be a thin line in my home.

The range of what is normal and healthy to live in is broad. It's when an extreme of tidiness/ untidiness is very inhibiting to normal actions that it's a problem. It's more obvious at the untidy end of the scale where it slips into built-up dirt, smells, poor hygiene, lack of space and being unable to care for things that it's obviously a problem.

At the tidy end, it's not so much that it's tidy that's the problem as the effort required to maintain it slipping into harrasment and normal actions are being constantly interrupted, instead of a more natural tidying at the end of an action that would result in the same outcome anyway.

I'm untidy. I intitially learned how to "tidy" from the school of "Shit visitors are coming, shove the stuff out of the way". I have learned how to actually strategise and tidy up in adulthood, but I do find it mentally wearing and difficult to keep on top of to maintain ongoing tidiness. I generally live in a state between 1-2 from those pictures. There will come a point where either it's getting excessive and annoys me into action or visitors are coming. A few days can get the house to immaculate for special occasions, but then I feel that the job's done, drop my guard and wonder why it's looking messy again in 36 hours. I feel completely dispirited by the fact that it only takes one meal to trash the kitchen and wonder why I put the effort into cleaning it thouroughly when there's no lasting result for anyone to see that I put all that bloody effort into it. I struggle with "tidy as you go" because my short term memory is too scatty to cope with continuing to maintain focus on A while dealing with sub-mess B at the same time, otherwise I get drawn down a chain of other faffy actions then wonder why the smoke alarm is telling me that I forgot to turn the sausages.

DM never dealt with the stuff that was shoved out of the way and tends to hoard and it has built up as she's got older and been on her own. A lot of the bulk is broken furniture including ancient unusable sofas that she will not accept offers to clear. She's paranoid that her identity will be stolen if any piece of paper with her name and address are on are discarded. She won't delegate any clearing incase she really wants something hidden away. It does inhibit family life as it's so uncomfortable to stay there so family don't, plus there are some rooms where the cats sleep, and she hasn't got much sense of smell...
The problem is that to intervene is more damaging at this stage than letting her carry on. She is generally healthy albeit with common ailments of old age. She is clean, well presented and smells fresh. It's not worth the toll of a breach of trust to intervene. There are traumatic triggers in her past that have caused her to cling onto things however irrationally.

In a family home, the stakes are higher. DM's home is more dangerous and inhibiting to impose on children than an elderly adult not affecting anyone else.

The main issue is how long-term and out of control is it and how it is affecting life. If it's isolated and otherwise all is well, it doesn't really reach the threshold for external intervention. If it is a long-term health hazard and interfering with basic standards then it is a form of neglect. It's not a black and white call.

I really don’t like the assumption you don’t play with your kids and must always be cleaning ‘where do you find the time’ etc if you are tidy. You find small pockets of time every day and because it isn’t very messy or unclean, it doesn’t take very long. That is all it is. DC get time spent with them, we go out, they have free reign of the house and also help and are expected to keep communal areas tidy, but can do what they like in their bedroom. DD2 is on the slightly revolting side but as long as that doesn’t extend to the bathroom or kitchen it’s ok. They pick it their washing, they take turns washing. When I got a new oven I just wipe it over every couple of days to keep it clean. When I hoover I give the skirting boards a dust. I take the rubbish out when I leave the house. I spent an hour on actual cleaning yesterday because I did upstairs and DD2 did downstairs we did it together and it’s over and done with

In my own experience of my own childhood pig sty my parents certainly didn’t spend the extra time with us, and at the exact same time my DF has some very strange obsessions with not having feet on the bare (gross) carpet and us kids not using the kitchen in case we made a mess (when we moved out DM from that house old potatoes were growing potatoes through a cupboard bottom)

Totally agree there is another end of the spectrum of tidy and clean that can be obsessive but don’t assume people with tidy homes are like that.

I don’t assume everyone who lives in mess is stupid and lazy. I think it’s hard to get on top of things once they have got into a mess, and if you don’t get help from your partner or DC this compounds it. You feel like a never ending battle and that you have better things to do with your time. My exSIL has always lived in a house like described in the OP and she had no motivation to clean it, no visitors ever came over, she was depressed and lonely and it was a symptom of that.

I’ve read the thread and there’s no mention of men cleaning anything. Depressing.

@Divebar that's true actually. I talk about me but actually DH shares the load equally. It does mean that as a partnership we can be doing jobs while the other is doing parenting. So we can both be "on" for different things.

I’m a single parent but agree. A lot of men do not do nearly enough

Not every person who keeps a clean and tidy home is an evil, dream murdering imagination killer as these threads often derail to suggest.

Op, your friend's house does sound like it's on the worrying end if I'm honest.

I also asked one lovely friend how she managed such a lovely home and she looked at me like I was crazy and told me she had a cleaner twice a week. So like everything else in life it’s also a financial issue.

They would rather spend an evening at the theatre than cleaning the toilet.

I hate this kind of morally superior shit to justify not doing something as basic as keeping a loo clean. How long does it actually take to clean a loo? 5 minutes?

I really don’t like the assumption you don’t play with your kids and must always be cleaning ‘where do you find the time’ etc if you are tidy. You find small pockets of time every day and because it isn’t very messy or unclean, it doesn’t take very long.

This ^^ is exactly how I operate.

I grew up in a stale, boringly clean house. It wasn't a home, it was like a showhome. We couldn't play properly or be kids because my mum was so obsessive about mess. If our rooms weren't immaculate we were in trouble. We often didn't bother to get our toys out to play because we would have to put them all away and tidy up again in no time! I used to LOVE going to my best friend's house. She had 4 siblings and a house like you described. It felt so homely and cosy and just real to me! There was something so comforting about it. They were such happy, relaxed kids and never had to worry or be scared about making mess because their mum accepted that kids make mess! Their house wasn't dirty, but it was definitely messy and cluttered and I felt SO happy and at home their. I used to hate returning to my boring, stale, unhomely house. Having a tidy house does NOT equal good parenting skills or happy children. Infact, I've found just the opposite - the happiest, most relax families I know have pretty messy houses! All my school friends who also had obsessively clean parents struggled as kids because they found their parents to be overly strict and now most of them have strained relationships.

The "sorry for the mess, the kids are making memories" crew are mostly deluding themselves.

Living in a reasonably tidy and clean house takes less effort than living in a messy one. On that visual scale, I'd say my house is on a 1.5, a 1 if we've had a bit of a big clean up. The messy person I know has often made some pointed comments about how tidy my house is, but how she prefers to spend time with her kids than clean. I don't take offence as it's born of her own insecurity.

When my children want to paint, they open the cupboard where the paints are, lay newspaper on the clear table, and sit down to paint. After they are finished, they put the paints back where they belong.

When her children want to paint, there's a huge discussion over where the paints are, who had them last. A search is mounted. Often the paints can't be found, or the lid is off, and there are only a few usable colours. Tantrums ensue.

Obviously it's not just paints, you could replace it with anything - toys, the PlayStation controller, PE kit. Most cleaning and tidying is done in short bursts throughout the day and simply involves putting something back in its place once you have finished using it, or wiping a surface down after use. Seconds. In a particularly chaotic home, vast amounts of time are spent looking for items, clearing the sofa so everyone can sit down to watch that family movie etc. As a PP says, children play better when their toys are accessible and they have clear space to play in. Having a clinically clean home in which nobody can breathe is, of course, just as bad, but the whole "the mess is for the good of the kids" excuse is nonsense.

There's tidy and there's clean. IMO mess isn't the end of the world.

There's always stuff about in our house but it's regularly vacuumed and my kitchen and bathrooms are clean. Same with my DM's where when you walk in there are newspapers on every surface and on the floor.

One of the other mums from school had a very tidy house. Everything in it's place but her toilet and sinks were a bit grim.

I'd be more concerned about that than someone effectively having too much stuff.

Worrying about cereal packets on the side of the kitchen is a non issue. Not being able to have a bath or use the sink, or not being able to find clean clothes because they are mixed in with dirty ones, is a big issue.

As with many things in life, both the extremes of extreme clutter/mess and sterile show home that can't be touched have the potential to affect a child's upbringing (as evidenced by experiences described by previous posters).

However, I think between the extremes it is important to acknowledge that there is a spectrum of acceptable and no right answer as to what is the right level of tidy/clutter because it is dependent on the individual/s.

I went to a study skills/time management session once that really resonated with me. The premises was that people roughly divide into two types. One type likes to work with a completely clear desk, books and other reference stuff are brought out to be used then put straight away, post is dealt with or put on a to do list and filed until needed etc. This approach is traditionally seen as the 'ideal' hence clear desk policies. However, the second type of person uses their work area as part of their to do list. So letters are pinned to a noticeboard/laid on a desk as a visual reminder to do them, books are kept out until totally finished with etc. If something is filed it is because it is finished with/closed. It can be very hard for the second type of person to force themselves to work like the first type and the conclusion news we should acknowledge and embrace the type of person we are.

I see this in my own life. I am definitely the second type of person. I have to leave any bills out on a side so I see them and do them. I do have storage (obviously!) but a lot of it is open shelves because if I can't see things I forget I have them! Just the other day I found some colouring books for DC that I had completely forgotten we had because they were tidied away too thoroughly... DH is the same as me. It does not mean we are unhygienic, it just means that we don't have completely clear surfaces or put everything away every night. Equally, I recognise that other people prefer the clear desk way of life so will structure their house in a different way to me and have clearer surfaces etc because that is what works for them.

In the OPs case it does sound like they might be tipping into the extreme level which could be become an issue for the kids (but equally they could be about to do a thorough tidy when back from holiday and OP just saw a really bad moment in time).

@Divebar, it’s the norm in my house. Started when OH and I shared a student house in the 70s and just kept it up. When the children hit teens, we had a flexible rota. Now there are 4 adults in the house, rota is still going and works reasonably well. So no, I don’t talk about men cleaning because it’s not noteworthy.