To think that Labour will not be able to win a General Election with Corbyn as leader

[Question1001]

Here we are, looking at a Boris post truth Trump style of premiership and a no deal Brexit, yet the opposition is sitting on the fence on the latter, and run by someone who, while he might have his own fan base, is never going to win the country (as in UK) IMO.

For the greater good he should stand down IMO, and let someone else take over. Or we risk being ruled by a much more right wing Tory party for years to come, and the consequences of that don’t bear thinking about.

The press don’t need to do a hatchet job on him, he and his advisors are doing that for themselves. His greatest supporters are growing increasingly frustrated with him, Tom Watson and Emily Thornberry are fit to burst with it. To be honest I blame Seamus Milne more than Corbyn, he’s pulling the strings.

"his socialism in one state dream" a ridiculous phrase which bears no reality to the labour policies. But is definate attempt to draw comparisons with Stalin.

Tell me, are Germany and the Nordic states socialist in one state countries?

I think, realistically he's not going to go. I agree with PP's that so many of us are craving a sensible middle ground option right now. However, as another pp said, many of labours policies are v popular across the board (re-nationalising the rail, and so on).

I think the days of majority governments are gone and no-one is going to "win" the next GE outright. If JC did get in it would very likely be as leader of a coalition government or some sort of collaborative deal made up of Labour, Green / Lib etc.

Therefore, his more 'extreme' left ideas would not get through as he would never have a majority for those ideas, and he would be tempered by the more sensible people in his government. There are in fact quite a few sensible people in his shadow cabinet who would also temper him I think (Kier Starmer, Tom Watson, Emily Thornberry etc etc). But at least they would have the opportunity to start to right some of the wrongs of the Tory government, reverse the closure of so many services due to austerity etc.

So I think on balance, although I'm not happy with JC's stance on Brexit or his weak opposition, for those of us severely concerned about a Boris / no deal leadership, it would still better to vote Labour in a GE.

I agree, I like Emily Thornberry.

@Question1001

Do you really not see how there is no substance to your criticism of Corbyn? You are engaging in personal attack and not debate or criticism of his and his party's policies, values, vision for the country, etc.

It's pathetic. But it works unfortunately.

He always seems to be scuttling off somewhere, or whispering in a corner

This is not an example of critical thinking. It is not political analysis. It is substancesless underthinking. It is personal attack. It is utterly vacuous.

I don't think the Tories are scared of Corbyn because he's strong - I think they are scared of him because they are weak, divided and at their most vulnerable and if anyone other than Corbyn had been leading the labour party they would have lost the last election - change out Corbyn and the Tories will fall. Unfortunately at the moment both labour and the tories are a mess - how the hell did that happen?!!

Zipee I want a Labour government

Corbyn’s stance re EU is based in a tradition of left wing thinking that is anti the capitalist club of the EU. As you will know.

I don’t need to cast slurs on him he does that all in his own

Germany and the Nordic states are not socialist countries, they are social democracies

Arriving at work so bowing out now

My constituency is a very safe tory seat - the local MP is a career politician and has been completely useless - too busy climbing the greasy pole but it matters not - they'd vote for any turkey with a blue ribbon. Our vote always feels like a waste of effort, it's quite frustrating and I can see why people don't bother.

You are engaging in personal attack

I don’t think I am. I think he is completely lacking in the charisma and skill necessary for the job of international level politician.

I agree with some of his policies, and also his defence of the poorest in society.

I utterly disagree with his stance on the EU.

And I am not vacuous or pathetic thanks a lot - it is rather you who are attacking me, but some of that unpleasantness does come from some of Corbyn’s supporters so is par for the course in the current polarised climate.

And his communication skills, except when talking to his already converted followers, are not good enough. I have seen countless shots of him refusing to talk to the press. Scuttling is a good analogy IMO.

It’s not good enough, because what is at stake is far larger than people potentially being offended and take things as personal attack.

taking

And it won't matter who Labour have as leader if it isn't Corbyn.

The British press will do a similar hatchet job on them and the public will swallow it. They will be disappointed in the next leader too and parrot that they too are "unelectable" for whatever personally attacking reason they are fed by the media.

Of course Corbyn is unelectable if the British public won't vote for him because they have been told not to by the right wing status quo. And the next Labour leader will be unelectable too.

And the UK public will continue to bolster a government which does not have their best interest at heart and which is a toxic political embarrassment.

I live in France and the population here do not understand WTF is going on in the UK and why the public are putting up with it and aren't on the streets asking for their democracy back.

Question1001

I did not call you vacuous and pathetic. And I did not engage in personal attack. I maintain that your comments about Corbyn are attacks on his person and you have yet to comment on actual policies.

I said that the comment of yours I quoted was vacuous and that substanceless criticism of Corbyn is pathetic.

And I'm not a "Corbyn supporter". I don't live or vote in the UK. I support left wing principles and values and I support democracy and unbiased journalism as a bedrock of that democracy.

It's incredible the job that has been done on the British public. Over the years I have read countless posts on here saying something along the lines of "I'm a Labour voter, I think Corbyn has some decent policies, but I won't vote for them because..... insert vacuous comment that is of no political substance .

It's the influence of propaganda and it is working.

It's depressing.

@Beachcomber, it’s not just criticism from the Tory press. Corbyn’s leadership is criticised by the party faithful, some leading trades unionists, the left wing press and thousands of life long Labour voters.

Okay I apologise beachcomber, but my main point is, it doesn’t matter how good some of Corbyn’s policies might be, if his communication style doesn’t get this message across.

Others might be better able to bridge that divide. The press is toxic, yes. It’s not necessarily up to people to see that if they aren’t able to, but politicians should know how to navigate it better than Corbyn is doing.

And on the EU I think Corbyn is doing completely the wrong thing, and that really matters. Instead of coming out and telling his pro Leave voters the truth about how much poorer they will be, he is sitting on the fence.

So remainers effectively have no representation.

So Germany and the Nordic states are not socialist but have virtually all of the things proposed by the Labour manifesto?

Thanka for clarifying that the socialism in one country allegation is erroneous.

With the EU stance Corbyn is wrong, I agree, however I think coming out for a second refeendum or no brexit would lose the Labour party more seats than it woupd win!

"You see the influence of the press all the time on threads on MN. Posters regurgitating stuff they've picked up from the press but there is never much substance to it." Yes - what I find fascinating is that many mners claim to not ready the naom newspapers certainly not the DM - And yet so many links and posts which clearly show otherwise.

""his socialism in one state dream" a ridiculous phrase which bears no reality to the labour policies. But is definate attempt to draw comparisons with Stalin.

Tell me, are Germany and the Nordic states socialist in one state countries?" Exactly!

I wonder if any of the anti Corbyn posters have even read the manifesto?

"This is not an example of critical thinking. It is not political analysis. It is substancesless underthinking. It is personal attack. It is utterly vacuous." Totally agree. I mean it's not like tv footage is ever edited or manipulated...oh wait! 🤔

"It's the influence of propaganda and it is working.

It's depressing." This is exactly what's happening and it IS depressing, especially for those of us at the sharp end most affected by the Tory attacks on the poor and sick!

Backing a second referendum would make a hell of a lot of people like me vote Labour again.

Corbyn’s leadership is criticised by the party faithful, some leading trades unionists, the left wing press and thousands of life long Labour voters.

I would want to know if those criticising are genuine Labour Party "faithful" or blairite leftovers?

Alsohuman

Yes. If you read the LSE report that I posted a link to upthread they talk about that as part of their analysis. Their findings are that the Labour members / supporters who do not like Corbyn are cited in the press much more often than those who like / support him. They suggest that the press deliberately seek to represent critical left wing voices of Corbyn and to underrepresent supporting left wing voices. They suggest that this is concerning for democracy in the UK and I'm inclined to agree with them.

There are always divisions in political parties and supporters. No leader of a political party has ever been universally liked. It isn't fair or realistic to expect Corbyn to be an exception.

But as per usual the standards the Labour leader are held to and judged against are unfair. It doesn't matter who replaces him when the time comes. The same will happen. I suspect the Labour party are very aware of that.

You’re clutching at straws now @Graphista. A number of his front bench would love to see him go and take Milne with him.

TM couldn't control her cabinet, Cameron couldn't get his to back his EU stance.

How is it clutching at straws?! It's a very accurate assessment of the situation and a valid question

I can't stand the Tories but I won't vote for the Labour party while it carries on as it has. If Corbyn left, it would be a start.