to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

if you believe transwomen are women, then you don't want them to have to be consigned to a third space

So the sticking point is those who are unwilling to budge from this belief? Yes, that is a problem. If they could be more flexible in accepting facts it would help solve this issue.

And in the meantime, transwomen continue to be placed at risk

We keep hearing this. Can you link to any examples?

If you don't, of course you don't want them to enter female spaces. If you do, as I do, of course you're happy for them to enter female spaces. And I can't see a way of ever aligning those two entirely different viewpoints

Because in matters of consent, no always trumps yes.

Others have said segregate by sex plus testosterone levels. Not a third category but two categories - one for women and trans men not on T and another for men, trans women and trans men on T. Only two categories. That's one option that has been suggested.

What I suggested was two categories based on sex. Women (including transmen not on T, because they are women), and men (including transwomen). This would leave transmen on T with nowhere they could participate, so my suggestion was that they compete with the men, since they have an unfair advantage over women due to taking a banned drug.

Alternatively, categories of male, female and open would be a good solution.

peachgreen I guess what I would like to ask is this. When you posted this:

And quite aside from that, if you believe transwomen are women, then you don't want them to have to be consigned to a third space. I understand that for the vast majority of posters here, transwomen are not women and therefore this suggestion is pretty abhorrent. But it's why we'll never be able to see eye to eye.

..I read that as the only way you think we will be able to see eye to eye is if people compromise this belief. But why don’t those who believe TWAW need to compromise that belief too? Do you think they should?
Why is it always framed as the women who are the inflexible ones? Why aren’t there more people willing to accept that repeating “TWAW!” and shouting “die cis scum” isn’t really productive?

“But this third space is a hypothetical. In most places it doesn't exist. And in the meantime, transwomen continue to be placed at risk, and cannot enjoy the same (or equal) opportunities.”

I’m glad you’re here- there are too many consenting voices! Can you say a bit more about the risks and loss of opportunity trans women experience?

And yes, I know that third spaces are currently hypothetical in most cases- what I hope we’re doing here is looking to the future to find acceptable solutions. Which may involve compromise.....

And in the meantime, transwomen continue to be placed at risk, and cannot enjoy the same (or equal) opportunities.

But they already have equal opportunities and more. They have already benefited from male socialism, as is evident by their sense of entitlement, when they identify as trans, to female spaces and achievements and their lack of empathy towards women who disagree with them. They also get to take the rewards intended for women, eg ‘woman of the year’, is just one of them.

Why should my entitlement to a female space be removed, in order to validate their feelings? Why are women being made responsible for keeping men who identify as trans (MWIAT) being kept safe from men? Why aren’t men being made responsible for keeping fellow males safe?

@notbadconsidering No, I didn't mean it that way. I genuinely meant what I said - I don't see a way that there will ever be a compromise that will please everyone (or even anyone!) because we come at it from fundamentally different ends of the spectrum. Of course I believe my "side" is right, just as you believe your "side" is - and I don't really see how anyone can be flexible on their belief either that transwomen are women or that transwomen are not women. There's no middle ground there. And I agree that shouting it at each other doesn't help - I could say "transwomen are women" until I'm blue in the face and I won't change your mind, and you could reply with "adult human female" all you like and it wouldn't change my mind. I genuinely believe it's an impossible impasse, at least for now. Perhaps in future generations there will be more of a consensus - the swing towards support for gay marriage is an example - but for now I can't see a way of reaching a solution that will ever be acceptable.

@HumberElla Violence against transwomen is widely reported. I don't need to google it for you. There have been several high profile cases in Dallas and Paris in the last few weeks alone.

@BuzzShitbagBobbly I understand your point, and quite possibly you're right. If there genuinely are more women who are against transwomen accessing female spaces than there are women who support it, perhaps the creation of a third space is, for now, the only solution. But I'm honestly not sure what the majority opinion is. There are campaigners at both extremes who shout very loudly and I think the middle voice gets drowned out, and there's really no way of uncovering their opinions. If you only read MN you'd assume the majority of women were against it - but as I said earlier on the thread, that's not my experience in real life at all.

@bertrandrussell I didn't really think it was controversial to say that transwomen who have to use male facilities like toilets and prisons etc are placed at risk - there are lots of reports and statistics to back it up (and of course there are exceptions like Karen White, before anyone brings it up!). In terms of opportunities, again, that comes down to the fundamental belief again. Let's take Hampstead ponds as an example. You believe women have the right to swim without men present. I believe that transwomen are women and therefore should enjoy that same right. You believe that means natal women are no longer enjoying that right. I don't, because I believe transwomen are women. Do you see what I mean? It's circular and impossible to solve.

@S1naidSucks I believe the disadvantages of being trans by far outweigh the advantages enjoyed by male socialisation. Of course the "cure" is to solve the problem of male violence - but that's just not going to happen.

@peachgreen- can you say what opportunities/equalities transwomen don’t have?
And do you think that transwomen are more at risk of violence than women are?
What are your views on transwomen competing in women’s sport?

Thanks peachgreen, that makes sense.

I would take issue with this though:

Perhaps in future generations there will be more of a consensus - the swing towards support for gay marriage is an example - but for now I can't see a way of reaching a solution that will ever be acceptable.

This sounds a lot like “on the wrong side of history” to me.

Sorry- cross posts.

So are you saying that women have no rights at all in this-that they should accept male bodied people in women’s spaces and shut up?

Also- gay men are very much at risk of male violence. Should they be allowed in women’s spaces too

Can you say what opportunities/equalities transwomen don’t have?
To access all opportunities natal women are able to. In many instances they can, but a lot of GC feminists would want to take those opportunities away.

And do you think that transwomen are more at risk of violence than women are?
I understand the statistics are pretty unreliable in this area (I try to get as unbiased a picture as possible and found FactCheck a very useful resource: www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-how-many-trans-people-murdered-uk) but I think it's safe to say that transwomen are more at risk of violence when forced to use male spaces.

What are your views on transwomen competing in women’s sport?
I think more research needs to be done on the impact of testosterone and male puberty on the achievements of athletes. There are several studies with competing conclusions. Honestly, being neither a sportsperson or a transperson I don't think my opinion is really informed or relevant - I'd welcome a balanced investigation headed by sportswomen and transpeople.

Of course the "cure" is to solve the problem of male violence - but that's just not going to happen.

Why not? Can you explain why you think that will never happen?

While not minimising their deaths, it appears that many of the tw mentioned above, were involved in prostitution - itself a very high risk profession for male and females (last para indicates this).

When adjusted for that, the numbers are very different - and the stat that there are more tw in jail in the UK than have been murdered stands true I think?

(I accept I am mixing up US and UK stats, but if we are going to understand the issue, we need to give the full facts and context rather than just saying "tw are more likely to be killed" - especially when 2 women are being murdered a week as well)

@notbadconsidering This sounds a lot like “on the wrong side of history” to me.
I know and I'm sorry - I was trying to think of an example which wouldn't be quite so politically loaded but couldn't. I more just meant different generations have different majority opinions and perhaps in the future there will be more of a consensus either way.

I believe transwomen are women. Do you see what I mean? It's circular and impossible to solve.

Well no not really. You seem to be saying something you personally believe to be true, is therefore fact and until the world bends to accommodate your belief there will be no resolution.

Thankfully in a secular society we work hard to make sure everyones beliefs are respected.
Thankfully also, we are not forced to live by any individuals personal belief system.

To access all opportunities natal women are able to. In many instances they can, but a lot of GC feminists would want to take those opportunities away.

Could you be a bit more specific please? What opportunities do women have that men who identify as trans don’t?

@BertrandRussell Crossposted here too, sorry!

So are you saying that women have no rights at all in this-that they should accept male bodied people in women’s spaces and shut up?
No, I'm really not saying that. I totally understand that there are many women who are fundamentally opposed to transwomen accessing women's spaces and they have a right to voice their opinion. I think they're wrong. But they think I'm wrong. I don't have the answer - I wish I did.

Also- gay men are very much at risk of male violence. Should they be allowed in women’s spaces too
I haven't thought about it enough to say with any certainty, but my initial response would be no, because they're not women. Whereas (I believe) transwomen are.

peachgreen
You have said you believe that transwomen are women. Can I ask at what stage of transition you believe this to be true?

Some examples:
Is Philip Bunce a woman on the days he puts on a dress and a wig and calls himself Pippa?

Is Alex Drummond a woman?

Is Karen White a woman?

Does a man become a woman as soon as he declares he is one, or do some other steps need to be taken?

You say you've heard of Karen White, so I've attached photos of the other two in case you're not familiar with them.

Of course I believe my "side" is right, just as you believe your "side" is - and I don't really see how anyone can be flexible on their belief either that transwomen are women or that transwomen are not women.

One of these things is not like the other!

Your side is an ideological belief and like other ideological beliefs (such as belief in divine beings) it's up to you to meet the burden of proof not for others just to take your word for it. You cannot do that in any meaningful sense because people cannot change sex.

If you only read MN you'd assume the majority of women were against it - but as I said earlier on the thread, that's not my experience in real life at all.

Have a read of this thread. I don't know anyone IRL who thinks what is happening to women's spaces is acceptable. Your assertion that it's an extremist view is at best naive and at worst disingenuous.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3607760-People-ARE-aware-and-thinking-about-the-trans-agenda-And-they-dont-like-it

But I'm honestly not sure what the majority opinion is.

Polls have suggested the majority view is around 80% not in favour including the one conducted by Pink News.

To access all opportunities natal women are able to. In many instances they can, but a lot of GC feminists would want to take those opportunities away.

I think many GC feminists have issues with people like Pips Bunce being named a “woman of the year” for actions done “as a woman” a few days a week.

I totally understand that there are many women who are fundamentally opposed to transwomen accessing women's spaces and they have a right to voice their opinion. I think they're wrong.

Hypothetically, If you had control over those decisions, would you force those women to permit men who identify as trans to enter those spaces, even if it caused women to stop using those spaces?

@S1naidSucks Using women's toilets. Accessing domestic violence and rape shelters. Attending "women only" sessions at swimming pools, gyms etc. Being part of women's groups at work. I don't really know what specific examples you're looking for - there are lots. As for why male violence will never be solved - well, maybe it will, but given it's been a problem in pretty much every culture for millennia, I doubt it's going to happen any time soon!

@HumberElla I'm not saying that at all. I believe transwomen are women. You don't. I can't see a way of aligning those two viewpoints and that's why I can't see a resolution. I'm not asking anyone to bend to my own individual viewpoint.

Off to a meeting now but I'm happy to continue when I come bac.