to think that we could have a different sort of discussion on trans issues that might be helpful?

[BertrandRussell]

We can discuss the nature of womanhood endlessly. Philosophical discussions are always absorbing and interesting and very necessary and there should be plenty of space for them. However, it seems to me that there are practical discussions that need to happen which always get subsumed into the theoretical. There always have and always will be transpeople, and for the vast majority of the time it’s not an issue. Or shouldn’t be- there are transphobes in the world who should be treated with the contempt they deserve. Of course trans people deserve all the rights and protections that everyone has. However, there are some areas where the rights of transpeople are in direct conflict with those of non transpeople, and the conflict looks unresolvable. But we need to find resolution- and quickly. Could this thread concentrate on how we do that, and not be sidetracked?
To me, the urgent issues are-

1. How do we make it possible to preserve spaces where women who have been hurt or traumatised by a man can be sure they won’t meet a male bodied person?
2. How do we record crime so that it does not look as if there is a rise in violent crime-including rape- committed by women?
3. How do we preserve women’s sport so that it is not taken over by male bodied people who have an automatic physical advantage over people who were born female?
4. How do we make it possible for people to want to form relationships based on genital preference without being considered bigoted?

25% according to this study:

bjsm.bmj.com/content/48/7/655.1

Majority of women athletes have to deal with periods.

I agree though that I was wrong about using it as a marker for return to competition. Should be the same length as a ban for someone caught doping. A year would seem appropriate.

Actually curious i take it back

Its taken me off on a tangent

Yes I agree notbad

I sympathise a bit with the “wife work” comment. As feminists many of us have had a life time of “but what about men?” in both the public and private sphere. And, frankly, there doesn’t seem to be much appetite in public discourse among men or transpeople for compromise. I hate to go on about Hamstead Ponds- but there was a really made opportunity for a effort free compromise and it was rejected out of hand. And I do think that the group wanting to change the status quo has some responsibility to come up with solutions more nuanced than “We win/you lose”.
I think the third space idea is a potential runner, obviously the exact terms need to be discussed.

Transpeople are at risk from male violence as well.

Gay men are at risk from male violence, but gay men never insisted on using women's toilets to escape from it.

ALL men are at risk from male violence but that's not a reason to let them into women's spaces.

Male violence is an issue that affects everyone. Which is why the deafening absence of men’s voices is so shameful. With, of course, honourable exceptions.

But your example of Hampstead Pnds show quite clearly that 3rd spaces are a no go. Or why would transwomen refuse to use the mixed pond?

Whilst we are there: why did the men in the men's pond react as they did tot eh Man Friday incursion? I think that is something that so very many people don't think about. Men have as spaces they like to be male space, just as women have women's spaces. If women lose thiers then will men be told they must do the same? It is not just a female issue. I suspect when more men realise that there wil be a very swift response... [hearing doors slam shut]

If women lose thiers then will men be told they must do the same

No, i don’t reckon it will make any difference at all

3rd spaces would work if they were enforced, they aren’t being enforced

Decomposing

I am not sure you are here in good faith to be honest.

You said:

I've always supported a third space. But whenever I've said that on here I've been shouted down

Then said:
Nope, regulars on FWR boards. Arguments included men aren't welcome in women's spaces, if they don't like it then they need to start fighting for a third space

Where in that is the shouting down exactly?

I’d be interested in an explanation of that too. But please can we accept everybody on this thread at face value?

I see no point in starting a discussion on here only for people to march on telling us we're doing wife work.

'march on'?

I have a problem with people who don't care about alternative provision and think just saying ban them from the ladies is enough. I don't agree with that. If we want to keep women's spaces as women only then we do have a social responsibility to ensure that everyone is provided for.

I would love for there to be alternative provision so that everybody's needs are comfortably met but trans people have to be the ones to come up with what that should look like. And I will gladly support them as long as their solution does not shit on women or children.

Society as a whole has a social responsibility to ensure that everyone is provided for. Women as a specific group do not.

You seem to have spent a lot of time on this thread pointing out snags and gotchas in other people's ideas. This is a thread to try to find solutions. What are your ideas?

I don't agree with that. If we want to keep women's spaces as women only then we do have a social responsibility to ensure that everyone is provided for.

No. Just no.

It is not my responsibility as a woman to ensure everybody else’s wants and desires are provided for, to their 100% unanimous satisfaction, before I can consider my most basic needs for female provision.

Women’s spaces already belong to women. Because we’ve shed blood sweat and tears for it. I will support increased provision for others who want to campaign for it, but never at the expense of what little women have managed to gain.

*Transpeople are at risk from male violence as well.

Gay men are at risk from male violence, but gay men never insisted on using women's toilets to escape from it.

ALL men are at risk from male violence but that's not a reason to let them into women's spaces.*

Exactly @SchnitzelVonKrumm the issue is male violence so allowing males into female spaces isn't going to solve that problem only spread it and make our space less safe.

“Women’s spaces already belong to women. Because we’ve shed blood sweat and tears for it”

Yes. This. I am absolutely prepared to get behind other groups’ campaigns and to help look for solutions. But I am absolutely not going to take responsibility for organising those campaigns. That’s up to the people who want the change.

What it ultimately boils down to is whether or not you believe transwomen deserve the same protections as natal women. If you don't, of course you don't want them to enter female spaces. If you do, as I do, of course you're happy for them to enter female spaces. And I can't see a way of ever aligning those two entirely different viewpoints. We can argue the minutae and the different exceptions and hypothetical situations until we're blue in the face, but it can never really address that core belief.

whether or not you believe transwomen deserve the same protections as natal women

But why does protecting transwomen mean that they have to enter female spaces? Why can't they have a protective space of their own?

That core belief is nonsense though. I believe transwomen deserve the same protections as women. There is nothing in that that means they have to have the same protections in the same space. They can have their own third space.

But this third space is a hypothetical. In most places it doesn't exist. And in the meantime, transwomen continue to be placed at risk, and cannot enjoy the same (or equal) opportunities.

What it ultimately boils down to is whether or not you believe transwomen deserve the same protections as natal women.

No. This frames the argument with women being the aggressors and the unreasonable party.

What it boils down to is whether you believe they are women. Because men have no entitlement to women's spaces and to force their way into them is the aggressive act.

It’s not hypothetical. What you mean is there isn’t the infrastructure. This can be addressed. How does accessing women’s spaces give them the same equal opportunities?

And quite aside from that, if you believe transwomen are women, then you don't want them to have to be consigned to a third space. I understand that for the vast majority of posters here, transwomen are not women and therefore this suggestion is pretty abhorrent. But it's why we'll never be able to see eye to eye.

What it ultimately boils down to is whether or not you believe transwomen deserve the same protections as natal women

What 'protections' do natal women get exactly?

Women cannot even arrange a female bike ride, riding to honour other women and girls killed by males, without being harassed, blocked, slated online.

Women are not allowed to do anything without the input of men.

Men are the problem. What is the solution when the rights of women to do anything without them just do not exist?

I agree with the third space option for toilets/ changing rooms/ hospital wards etc and an open category in sports

Unfortunately I don't believe it will be debated. If the starting point from transactivitsts is that trans women are women and #nodebate then how can we have constructive dialogue? Conversation needs to be had, but how?

So a belief in protecting trans women means the only solution is they all have to be allowed in female spaces?

Sorry that just makes no sense at all to me.

I have a question re. The cotton ceiling and if there are any transwomen reading, I would love to understand:

If you are a transwoman who likes women but who still has a penis, why does the woman you are with have to be a lesbian? Why not a straight woman who is accepting of how you identify?

I am straight, but have, like many straight women felt at times an attraction to another woman. The stumbling block for me was always that I want to have sex with someone with a penis. The thought of having sex with another woman doesn't appeal at all. That is how I know I am straight.

Why is it acceptable for you to reject being with a straight women to because you identify as a woman but not for gay women to reject you because you are biologically male?

There is a far larger pool of straight women in the world than lesbians and as far as I can see, you would still be with a woman which is what you are sexually attracted to.

I am genuinely trying to understand.