To ask why aibu is so anti-trans?

[BinkyBaa]

Just that really. I don't mean to be goady I've just noticed that when it comes up here, people seem more against it than other social circles I'm familiar with. I think I'm a bit out of the loop as to what the issue is.

My frustration is that there are a few scenarios where there is a completely irresolvable conflict of rights. Not many- but a few. And we need to find a fix. And the fix is not “shut up you transphobic” or “bugger off you man in a dress”. And that’s all that can happen if all talk is shut down. I hate to bang on about the Hamstead Pools, but I genuinely don’t see why it could’t have been left as it was. Transwomen could have carried on using the unisex pool, and women who can’t swim with male bodied
people could have kept the women’s pool. I do do not understand why this wasn’t enough.

I do do not understand why this wasn’t enough.

Because access to the women only pool is necessary to validate men who identify as women. Mixed sex doesn't validate.

Using the mixed pool isn't coercive enough for them to get a kick out of it. It's a double whammy of winning a power struggle and taking something from women. Bonus points if you can cause maximum distress in the process.

Surely this is becoming clear to most people now?

That’s the thing. That is the only possible explanation I can think of for the Hampstead pools thing. But I really want to hear what someone who thinks it’s justified says about it. There is still a bit of me that thinks there has to be more to it than simple spite.

There is still a bit of me that thinks there has to be more to it than simple spite

That shows you have a heart

I don't have one...its spite

I think the views on MM are fairly representative of the wider world on this subject.

Namely, no problem with people being trans, but big problem with men saying they are women and demanding to use their loos/changing rooms/prisons etc.

That is not ok at all.

If you don't believe it's spite then ask yourself why there has been a well-supported campaign by trans activists in Canada for the past 24 years to close down Vancouver Rape Relief and Women’s Shelter for turning down a transwoman for a place on the shelter's training programme for volunteer counsellors in 1995. The shelter took the view that the transwoman would not be able to provide effective counselling.

Transwomen could work in plenty of other shelters in Vancouver but not that one. Therefore, it must be forced to close.

Regarding the Hampstead women’s pond, I understood it that trans women have been using it for many years already and it has been legal for them to do so. The recent announcement is just clarification that they can continue to do so.

Am I wrong in thinking this does anyone know? And if I’m right have there been any incidences up to this announcement?

I do do not understand why this wasn’t enough.

Some people won't compromise on matters of discrimination or inequality. Barring some women from the women's pool is just that.

I seem to remember Catholic adoption agencies having to shutdown because they couldn't promise to comply with laws saying that they had to consider same-sex couples as potential adopters. It was seen as more important to prevent discrimination even if they did do good work for the kids.

Christian BnBs have been taken to court due to policies of double bed rooms being reserved only for opposite-sex married couples. Offers of a twin bed room as a compromise were not good enough.

Some people just won't compromise at all at any sniff of being treated less equally than others.

I understood it that trans women have been using it for many years already and it has been legal for them to do so.

I believe the following is correct. You can dig up threads from the time on FWR to get more details.

There were specific bylaws which made two of the ponds single sex. The police turned up to arrest (on this basis) the women who self identified into the men's pond in a feminist protest.

The CoL guidance, however was saying that the ponds were mixed sex (which the feminist protesters produced and so avoided arrest) which was why some men had been self identifying into the women's pond, sparking the protest. The police clarified that the CoL guidance was not legal, the women could not use the men's pond and complaints by women in future about men in the women's pond would be responded to.

My impression is that the CoL have now change the relevant bylaw to make all pond unisex, but segregated by 'gender'. This also makes all the ponds unusable by strict Muslims and Jews.

Some people won't compromise on matters of discrimination or inequality. Barring some women from the women's pool is just that.

Yes. It's appalling that many women will be barred from using the pool now because of the presence of men.

It's also appalling how homophobic some transwomen are in denying or protesting against same sex attraction.

Mumsnet is way way more tolerant of trans issues than the real world. Anyone who can’t see that is clearly not listening to the views of the majority .

Goady Toady

I don't mean to be goady yes you do. Off you go.

JAPAB- can I ask you- what are the thought processes that led you to the conclusion that transwomen are women? Can you take me through the reasoning?

Christian BnBs have been taken to court due to policies of double bed rooms being reserved only for opposite-sex married couples.

This should never have made it to court.

We have a tyrannical new morality now that’s just as oppressive, intolerant, intrusive and nasty as the old - if not more so. This is not progress.

Some people won't compromise on matters of discrimination or inequality. Barring some women from the women's pool is just that

It would be if they were women, which they are not.

I would hate anyone to think I was anti trans ., via my work I’m currently trying to support a trans lady and have worked with loads of trans males and females and very much do feel huge empathy and support for both.
However I do not wish female rights to be lost in aid of “ right on “trans rights
Most trans folk would I feel not wish women to have all there female only places taken from them . Most trans folk get it and get that they are not biological women but trans women and I’m so supportive of that but I’m not supportive of biological women feeling vulnerable and placed in dangerous positions .
I’m also not pro giving children life long effecting drugs . Childhood is a time of lots of emotion , influence and growing and I don’t believe anything that affects your whole life should take place .

Doesn’t that mean that a transman, who is likely to be vulnerable in the men’s pond will be barred from the women’s?

I think the reality of life much like when I was in the in between stage with my son in the you use the already gender neutral loos .. which are the disabled . Instead for the population wise tiny amount of individuals who will do this ., all women are being penalised

@ I’mfree, very well said, agree completely.

@JAPAB

I do wonder at you talking about people being treated less equally. What rights are feminists trying to deny trans women?

All we are doing is asserting our boundaries and defending our rights. Yet it is seen as transphobic to do so. Are you suggesting that women’s rights, boundaries and consent are less important than that of the trans community.

I would also point out that women are being portrayed as privileged in this scenario in order to shame us into giving up single sex spaces. Being a woman is still a disadvantage in today’s society. Tripley so if you are a BAME woman. Yet over and over we are told that we are the privileged oppressors. My sexual assault, miscarriage, infertility and work discrimination is not an identity. I didn’t identify into that. Cis as a descriptor is bloody offensive because it lays the blame for women’s oppression at their feet. No one identifies with their oppression.

Agree with you OP, it’s an absolute cesspit at times.