AIBU to think that straight people shouldn't be dictating who should be able to go to Pride?

[ArcheryAnnie]

I'm a woman. I'm a mum. I'm also someone who has been an LGBT+ activist for most of her adult life. I used to go on Pride marches when it was a little bit scary to do so, when there was always a message at the end from the stage about being careful when you were going home and away from the safety of the gay-friendly crowd.

Susie Green, Mermaids CEO, is a straight woman. Which is fine! She is opposed to women declaring that lesbians don't have penises. Which is less fine, but eh, she's entitled to believe whatever daft things she wants. But - however many friends and relatives she has who fit under the LGBT+ banner - Pride isn't about her, or any other straight "allies".

And yet here she is, declaring that "We will only take part if we are satisfied that concerns have been addressed". This is because she is very keen to prevent lesbians who believe that lesbians don't have penises from participating in the Pride march.

Source: prideinlondon.org/news-and-views/a-pride-without-hate/

Susie, we don't give a shit whether you take part or not. We don't agree with you that women standing up for the validity of same-sex attraction, for female homosexuality, qualifies as "hate". We really don't care what you want to happen or don't want to happen at Pride. Pride was created by people like us, in times of great need, and you don't get to dictate what we will or won't do. This isn't for you.

AIBU to think Susie Green and others like her should stay in their lane?

@Cheeserton in the UK you really do need a penis to rape someone. Screenshot from the Crown Prosecution service website attached.

Some women have been convicted of conspiracy to rape, aiding and abetting, counselling and procuring rape. Some men who have penises but identify as women have been convicted of rape but they raped with their penis. No penis, no rape (see 'assault by penetration', section 2 sexual offences act, for an offence that can be committed without a penis under.the law in England and Wales)

Trans isn't a sexuality, Boo, nor is intersex (which of course has nothing to do with trans either).

And under English and Welsh law (not sure about Scottish) rape involves a penis and only men have penises so no, a lesbian won't ever be a rapist.

houseboy did your trans housemate insist you use female pronouns?

If you feel that you cannot attend an event because you will be in proximity with a member of a group other members of which have objectionable beliefs then you are prejudiced and your prejudices should not be indulged.

Great message to susie, booboo

What does 'sexual diversity' mean? Paraphilias? Paedophilia? Is that what Pride is celebrating? Lesbianism isn't a fetish. It's women loving women. 'Trans lesbianism' is definitely a fetish and is about hating women. It's destroying lesbian culture. It's appropriating our language. It's colonising our spaces. You can't counter that by pointing out that some lesbians are bad people. We have been fighting for so very, very long for the simple right to be us. To be women who love women. To have a little bit of the world where it's ok to be us.

Even if every 'trans woman' on the planet was some sort of incredible super being and not the blatant AGPs the vast majority are, they still wouldn't have the right to colonise women's spaces. And how have they been, really? A lot of us are now worried about going to Pride because we are worried about violence from these people. I used to go to Pride for some space away from the violence.

Sadly there seems to be a little to much compartmentalisation within the LGBTQ+ movement.

A little too much judging of others and false hierarchy.

A shame as it detracts from the support and power that could be achieved.

It’s not unlike the squabbling that can be seem on vegan groups on Facebook - I’m more vegan than you because........

Sadly some of the bigger Pride events have become more commercialised too adding addition friction between groups.

I’ve enjoyed pride events and just seeing varied groups walking tall for the day. It should be an event in which everybody benefits and puts differences aside for the greater good.

any more than I would judge a lesbian for being part of a group that includes TERFs.

This reminds me of when neo Nazis try to make their views seem like legitimate political discourse but after a few sentences the N word slips out.

If you can't hold a conversation without calling women t**fs then you are not really going to persuade everyone that TRAs just want to be inclusive.

I’ve enjoyed pride events and just seeing varied groups walking tall for the day. It should be an event in which everybody benefits and puts differences aside for the greater good

Does that good include women's good and the good of lesbian women not to shamed or harassed or forced into fucking people with dicks they have no desire for?

If anyone behaves in a hateful and discriminatory manner at the event should be removed

Sexual orientation is, by its very nature, discriminatory, Booboostwo.

Lesbian's discriminate sexually against men. Ie they recognise a distinction. As do heterosexuals, of course. As does the equality act, since sexual orientation is a protected characteristic.

Everyone bases their sexuality on biological sex, ffs.

Even transpeople, although often they pretend they don't.

If lesbians retaining the right (enshrined in fucking law), to describe themselves as female homosexuals, at a bloody pride march, is that something you object to, you need to have a little think about what you consider constitutes homophobia.

GoodbyePiccadilly of course I mean ‘sexual practices involving consent*. Suggesting that LGBTQ support paedophelia is a new low even for MN.

Datun there is a difference between fancing a specific kind of person which is acceptable, and treating people unequally because they fancy a specific kind of person. Duh.

Datun there is a difference between fancing a specific kind of person which is acceptable, and treating people unequally because they fancy a specific kind of person. Duh.

Duh indeed. Now can you explain to Pride & Stonewall that it’s not ok to treat lesbians unequally (ie calling the police on them) for holding placards up about being lesbians?

As for ‘LGBTQ’ anything, that comes back to the daft concept of some monolithic entity. Nobody is ‘LGBTQ’.

BooBoosTwo How many women need to tell you that being the object of the 'trans lesbian' fetish isn't consensual? Our entire culture is being colonised and parodied by people who don't respect us.
If you think that noting the links between queer theory and paedophilia is new then I'm surprised as it's been going on for many years. Breaking down age barriers is in the seminal queer theory texts.
If you want evidence, check out the seven year old boy on the LA Pride Parade:

Or the 'drag kids' calling themselves gender fluid etc.

Rape

(1) If a person (“A”), with A's penis—(a) without another person (“B”) consenting, and(b) without any reasonable belief that B consents,

penetrates to any extent, either intending to do so or reckless as to whether there is penetration, the vagina, anus or mouth of B then A commits an offence, to be known as the offence of rape."

Cassian the definition is the same in Scots law under the Sexual Offences (Scotland) Act 2009 which made it a statutory definition and included rape of males, both for the first time. Previously rape had been a common law offence. It also specifies the consent means "free agreement" and incapacity by alcohol or drugs is noted as incapacity to consent, along with force, coercion, asleep, etc.

Suggesting that LGBTQ support paedophelia is a new low even for MN

You might want to try explaining that to Peter Tatchell and some of his latest "learning materials".

Datun there is a difference between fancing a specific kind of person which is acceptable, and treating people unequally because they fancy a specific kind of person. Duh.

What the hell is treating someone unequally, because they fancy a specific kind of person? A paedophile?

Lesbianism is fancying a specific SEX. It is discriminatory to men, on the basis of sexual orientation.

Please don't tell me you think lesbians should exclude men on a a case-by-case basis? Depending on their personality?

Dear lord. This is where we are? In 2019?

there is a difference between fancing a specific kind of person which is acceptable, and treating people unequally because they fancy a specific kind of person

Come again?

Fancying a specific kind of person (biological females who are homosexual) is acceptable. Ok. Good.

Treating people unequally because they fancy a specific kind of person, (biological females who are homosexual) - are you saying that it's not ok for homosexual women to refuse sex to biological males on the grounds that they're homosexual?

And is this because those males identify as trans and so homosexual women are treating them as different to biological women and therefore it is treating them unequally to refuse them as sexual partners?

Can you just confirm that please?

Not willing to confirm then apparently?

Odd isn't it. People standing behind being homophobic towards female homosexuals, excluding them from society and demanding that they 'learn to get over' their homosexuality to sexually service men (no need for them to enjoy the sex or feel desire, just to present their bodies obediently) won't actually admit it

Almost as if they know there is something terribly terribly wrong in what they are advocating.

They'll dance around it in all kinds of flowery language, but they don't have the courage of their convictions to openly stand behind it.

I posted upthread about my daughter wanting to go to Pride and me being worried, and people seem to have taken a really weird take on that.

I am worried, because you lot were talking about police violence and wearing body cams to capture what happens.
I am worried about taking her, and my younger daughter as it is a pride family day, into an environment where there may literally by physical danger.
That was the last thing I was expecting from pride, and it worries me.

I doubt you will see anything at a local pride. You may, at the large ones, see rank injustice and homophobia being committed by police and males who identify as trans against a small group of homosexual women if they hold banners or wear items that implies their right to be homosexual and female. That is likely to take the shape of males shouting at those women, crowding and intimidating them and police insisting they leave/removing them. There has been one occasion where one of those males has punched one of these women.

However I very much doubt you or your daughter will experience any physical danger of any kind that has anything to do with this, or even see anything to do with it. It will be rapidly stifled and prevented, hence this whole thread. It's actually very sad when Pride, which was a big political statement and protest/celebration of homosexuality has become a family fun day where people protesting their right to be homosexual is seen as dangerous and unacceptable.

Steppemum, if you see anything it will be lesbians being pushed aside, removed by the police or yelled at for holding placards with phrases like 'Lesbians don't have penises' and 'Lesbians are female homosexuals'.

How would your daughter feel about that?

Can just say that I am emphatically in support of the lesbian women protesting their right to define what a lesbian is.
I also emphatically support their right to protest, and stand agains the opposition.

My concern is simply if this is appropriate for a child. Empress you have it exactly - how will pride help her stand tall as a lesbian if she sees women there pushed aside for being lesbian. dd is butch and I know at the beginning was taken with a lot of the trans ideology, fortunately she and I started talking, and she was happy to realise that she can be butch and gay, and it doesn't mean she is a transman.

I'm hoping that as this is a local family event, that it should be fine.
Last year I didn't let her go to pride, as I have always thought it was quite an adult event, for a variety of reasons. I was hoping this local event was OK, so that we can support her in going.

how will pride help her stand tall as a lesbian if she sees women there pushed aside for being lesbian.

It's why I and many other lesbians no longer go to Pride, or to anything with an LBGT label on it. Standing tall as a lesbian these days is very, very uncool and we're back to dealing with overt homophobia.

I really doubt you will see anything of this at a local pride though.

TBH I think you hit the nail on the head when you stated that you remember when Pride was a bit dangerous, it was a place to walk tall and find comfort with people who understood and felt safe with.

Now, in all honesty it seems to more about straight people virtue signalling or quite aggressive pushing of messages, I'm not sure its fit for purpose anymore.

But someone pushing their view that the very people pride originally started up to help is out of order. IMO Mermaids needs to be outlawed as a homophobic hate group (not to mention the damage it is undoubtedly doing to children).

But then maybe if we could get through life without needing to label everyone, put others and ourselves in boxes, defining people by a very narrow set of margins we would be a lot better off